# D&D (2024)Monk Playtest

#### Clint_L

##### Hero
I was specifically discussing unarmed damage and how it sucks that you can't really kick ass as an unarmed combatant as a monk.

#### tetrasodium

##### Legend
Supporter
Epic
I was specifically discussing unarmed damage and how it sucks that you can't really kick ass as an unarmed combatant as a monk.
So what difference does it make if the variable component of Alice the monk's attacks is a smaller range than Bob the fighter's if Alice makes more attacks that each carry the static component to a similar or even greater aggregate? What difference does it make if the resulting totals are equal or even greater?

#### Clint_L

##### Hero
But your examples didn't do that. Your examples were using a weapon. (Also, some of your math was wrong, such as giving a +5 damage bonus to 18 dex).

#### tetrasodium

##### Legend
Supporter
Epic
But your examples didn't do that. Your examples were using a weapon.
Have you not read how the martial arts ability works? I believe the example even included the relevant section.

#### W'rkncacnter

##### Hero
• Greatsword 16 str L1: 7+3=10
• Greatsword 20 str L5:2*(7+5)=24
• +1 Greatsword 20 str L11: 3*(7+5)=39
• +1 Greatsword 20 str L20:4*(7+5)=52
"...
You can use Dexterity instead of Strength for the
attack and damage rolls of your unarmed strikes and
monk weapons.
...
You can roll a d4 in place of the normal damage
o f your unarm ed strike or monk weapon. This die
changes as you gain monk levels, as shown in the
Martial Arts column of the Monk table.
...
W hen you use the Attack action with an unarmed
strike or a monk weapon on your turn, you can make
one unarmed strike as a bonus action."
• quarterstaff 16 dex L1: (2.5+3)+(3.5+3)=12 & 1 Ki/long or short rest <- This is more than the fighter at this level
• Quarterstaff 18 dex L5:2*(3.5+5)+3.5+5=27.5 & 5 Ki/long or short rest <- This too is more than the fighter at this level
• +1 Quarterstaff 20 dex L11: 2*(4.5+5)+4.5+5=35.5 &11 Ki/long or short rest <-- an average DPR that is four whole points behind that of the fighter.
• +1 Quarterstaff 20 dex L20:2*(5.5+5)+5.5+5=38.5 &20 Ki/long or short rest <-- 13.5 points behind the fighter but assuming the expected 2 short rests/long rest it should have 60 points of Ki for flurry or stunning strike. How could anyone manage with only sixty ki when they need to ration a mere 7-10 points each of the expected 6-8 encounters?
hold on, let me fix these for you:
• Greatsword 16 str L1: 7+3=10
• Greatsword 20 str L5:2*(7+4)=22
• +1 Greatsword 20 str L11: 3*(7+6)=39 (the math here was right, you just put 5 instead of 6)
• +1 Greatsword 20 str L20:4*(7+6)=52 (ditto)
• quarterstaff 16 dex L1: (2.5+3)+(3.5+3)=12 - ki is a 2nd level class feature. also, is there a reason why you aren't 2-handing the quarterstaff? we can get our damage up to (2.5+3)+(4.5+3) = 13 if we do. decently above greatsword fighter, but requires a bonus action
• Quarterstaff 18 dex L5:2*(3.5+4)+(3.5+4)=22.5 & 5 Ki/long or short rest - we can get this up to 24.5 by 2-handing the quarterstaff, or 32 with flurry of blows. flurry of blows is massively above greatsword fighter but requires bonus action and class resource
• +1 Quarterstaff 20 dex L11 - okay, wait, are you completely forgetting the monk gets extra attack at level 5? let me just recalculate this completely: 2*(4.5+6)+(4.5+5)=30.5, or 40 with flurry of blows. flurry of blows just barely beats greatsword at this point
• +1 Quarterstaff 20 dex L20 - once again i'm just gonna recalculate this completely: 2*(5.5+6)+(5.5+5) = 33.5, or 44 with flurry of blows.
got the last examples wrong on my first go but that should be fixed now

#### Njall

##### Explorer
If we compare it to other martials though it doesn't fit. Almost all martials start the game with a 1d8 damage and some defense (shield), or 2d6 if they want to commit to high offense. However, there damage generally only scales through more attacks, there are very few true "straight damage buffs" except through a few subclasses.

Well, actually, most martials gain a straight bonus to damage when leveling up, on top of extra attacks (Barbs gain a static bonus to damage while raging, which, at higher levels, is "always", and Paladins get Improved Divine Smite at level 11. Fighters are the exception, but they do get two more instances of Extra Attack, at level 11 and 15, and even rogues get scaling damage in the form of Sneak Attack dices, while monks, if you take away the scaling portion of MA, stop scaling at level 5.)

#### Bill Zebub

##### “It’s probably Matt Mercer’s fault.”
Well, actually, most martials gain a straight bonus to damage when leveling up, on top of extra attacks (Barbs gain a static bonus to damage while raging, which, at higher levels, is "always", and Paladins get Improved Divine Smite at level 11. Fighters are the exception, but they do get two more instances of Extra Attack, at level 11 and 15, and even rogues get scaling damage in the form of Sneak Attack dices, while monks, if you take away the scaling portion of MA, stop scaling at level 5.)

Possible translation: “Every martial class has an ability that makes damage scale. If you don’t count one of them, that class doesn’t have one.”

???

Now, maybe the monk doesn’t scale well enough to keep up, but it does scale.

#### tetrasodium

##### Legend
Supporter
Epic
hold on, let me fix these for you:
• Greatsword 16 str L1: 7+3=10
• Greatsword 20 str L5:2*(7+4)=22
• +1 Greatsword 20 str L11: 3*(7+6)=39 (the math here was right, you just put 5 instead of 6)
• +1 Greatsword 20 str L20:4*(7+6)=52 (ditto)
• quarterstaff 16 dex L1: (2.5+3)+(3.5+3)=12 - ki is a 2nd level class feature. also, is there a reason why you aren't 2-handing the quarterstaff? we can get our damage up to (2.5+3)+(4.5+3) = 13 if we do. decently above greatsword fighter, but requires a bonus action
• Quarterstaff 18 dex L5:2*(3.5+4)+(3.5+4)=22.5 & 5 Ki/long or short rest - we can get this up to 24.5 by 2-handing the quarterstaff, or 32 with flurry of blows. flurry of blows is massively above greatsword fighter but requires bonus action and class resource
• +1 Quarterstaff 20 dex L11 - okay, wait, are you completely forgetting the monk gets extra attack at level 5? let me just recalculate this completely: 2*(4.5+6)+(4.5+5)=30.5, or 40 with flurry of blows. flurry of blows just barely beats greatsword at this point
• +1 Quarterstaff 20 dex L20 - once again i'm just gonna recalculate this completely: 2*(5.5+6)+(5.5+5) = 33.5, or 44 with flurry of blows.
got the last examples wrong on my first go but that should be fixed now
nice way of obfuscating your "correction", I did find it amusing being asked if an example showing extra attack plus the free MA third attack was "completely forgetting" that monks get extra attack. Martial arts is a first level ability. I made the lists using only MA. The quarterstaff was being used one handed because I read the MA entry where it forbids using it two handed for that no ki use BA attack, I didn't expect I needed to quote that part of the MA entry in a discussion about monks. If it were being used two handed there would be no second attack at level 1 & no third attack at level 5+ . Your "corrections" seem to omit the martial arts no ki spend extra bonus action attack & accompanying +dex to damage making their math fall apart. Perhaps that explains why we keep hearing about terribad monk damage when they aren't forced to use flurry.

#### Clint_L

##### Hero
I don't know if you are intentionally ignoring my primary statement about UNARMED COMBAT just to be pedantic (which would be typical of this forum), but giving you the benefit of the doubt, I was specifically bemoaning the fact that the monk class makes it so hard to fulfill the classic fantasy of an UNARMED martial artist. So all your math using a weapon is irrelevant to my point. This is the third time I have emphasized the point.

Here's the original quote, which I made the concluding statement and put in it's own little paragraph for emphasis: "An unarmed martial artist kicking total butt is a pop culture staple and it is really weird that D&D makes it so hard to achieve."

You even quoted it in your reply, so I'm confused as to why you have consistently ignored it.

#### tetrasodium

##### Legend
Supporter
Epic
@Clint_L If you want to make a case for flavor of using unarmed attacks damage output is a poor hill to plant that flag because gaining equipment & improving power with new equipment is a big part of d&d. Such a case has about as much credibility as barbarians who don't want to use rage calling for improvements elsewhere & red dragon sorcerers who want to focus on cone of cold.

There could be a solid case for a shift from damage towards 3.x god wizard style useless damage but awesome force multiplier by avoiding weapons, but you don't seem to be focusing on any of the things such a shift would require or how it could be done without also turning the solid DPR+stun chassis of the monk into an extremely overtuned thing. I haven't focused on "UNARMED COMBAT" because the weapon I used in the example is a d6 & the martial arts die becomes a d6 at level 5 where the distinction between a 1d6+dex bludgeoning fist & a 1d6+dex monk weapon deals identical damage. at 11 the martial arts die jumps to 1d8 where both the fist and the quarterstaff deal 1d8+dex because "You can roll a d4 in place of the normal damage of your unarm ed strike or monk weapon. This die changes as you gain monk levels, as shown in the Martial Arts column of the Monk table.". There's literally only 4 levels where a monk with a quarterstaff deals more damage than one just using a fist & those levels are ones where everyone is just starting out but monk is still doing pretty well because MA extra attack allows an extra attack when nobody has one.

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