D&D (2024) Monk Playtest

[W'rkncacnter]

nice way of obfuscating your "correction",

???

I did find it amusing being asked if an example showing extra attack plus the free MA third attack was "completely forgetting" that monks get extra attack.

i'm gonna be honest - that was largely 1 am brain, so my bad there.

Martial arts is a first level ability.

i'm aware, but you were also listing ki point values per level, which is why i mentioned that monks don't get ki at level 1.

I made the lists using only MA.

i'm aware. i also factored in flurry of blows to provide a fuller picture.

The quarterstaff was being used one handed because I read the MA entry where it forbids using it two handed for that no ki use BA attack, I didn't expect I needed to quote that part of the MA entry in a discussion about monks.

that part of the MA entry doesn't exist. even if it did exist, there's no reason why you can't swap back to one-handing the quarterstaff between attacks, and no, i am NOT having this discussion with you again because quite frankly it isn't relevant anyway.

If it were being used two handed there would be no second attack at level 1 & no third attack at level 5+ .

no, they would, because once again, that part of the MA entry doesn't exist.

Your "corrections" seem to omit the martial arts no ki spend extra bonus action attack & accompanying +dex to damage making their math fall apart. Perhaps that explains why we keep hearing about terribad monk damage when they aren't forced to use flurry.

oh, so you didn't actually read them, you just decided to get confrontational about them for no reason. cool. if you had read them, you would've noticed that not only did i fix the dex values at 5th level (since nobody gets 2 asis between 1st and 5th level, only 1), but i ALSO accounted for the +1 the quarterstaff gets to damage starting at level 11 from being a +1 quarterstaff, and also made sure NOT to apply it to the unarmed strikes granted from martial arts (and flurry of blows, since i also calculated the damage for that), as they are not the quarterstaff and thus would not receive the bonus. i didn't account for the difference in accuracy that would cause because...you didn't either, so i don't think you care, and i certainly don't care. but if we wanted to do the math more properly that would be a factor.

oh, by the way, even if i didn't fix the equations, a lot of your math was still wrong. 2*(3.5+5)+3.5+5 (or 3*(3.5+5) if we want to write it properly) isn't 27.5. it's 25.5. 2*(4.5+5)+4.5+5 is 28.5, not 35.5. 2*(5.5+5)+5.5+5 is 31.5, not 38.5.

 

[tetrasodium]

???

i'm gonna be honest - that was largely 1 am brain, so my bad there.

i'm aware, but you were also listing ki point values per level, which is why i mentioned that monks don't get ki at level 1.

i'm aware. i also factored in flurry of blows to provide a fuller picture.

that part of the MA entry doesn't exist. even if it did exist, there's no reason why you can't swap back to one-handing the quarterstaff between attacks, and no, i am NOT having this discussion with you again because quite frankly it isn't relevant anyway.

no, they would, because once again, that part of the MA entry doesn't exist.

oh, so you didn't actually read them, you just decided to get confrontational about them for no reason. cool. if you had read them, you would've noticed that not only did i fix the dex values at 5th level (since nobody gets 2 asis between 1st and 5th level, only 1), but i ALSO accounted for the +1 the quarterstaff gets to damage starting at level 11 from being a +1 quarterstaff, and also made sure NOT to apply it to the unarmed strikes granted from martial arts (and flurry of blows, since i also calculated the damage for that), as they are not the quarterstaff and thus would not receive the bonus. i didn't account for the difference in accuracy that would cause because...you didn't either, so i don't think you care, and i certainly don't care. but if we wanted to do the math more properly that would be a factor.

oh, by the way, even if i didn't fix the equations, a lot of your math was still wrong. 2*(3.5+5)+3.5+5 (or 3*(3.5+5) if we want to write it properly) isn't 27.5. it's 25.5. 2*(4.5+5)+4.5+5 is 28.5, not 35.5. 2*(5.5+5)+5.5+5 is 31.5, not 38.5.

Spoiler: Yes it does

At 1st level, your practice of martial arts gives you mastery of com bat styles that use unarm ed strikes and monk weapons, which are shortswords and any simple melee weapons that don’t have the two-handed or heavy property.'

Versatile. This weapon can be used with one or two hands. A damage value in parentheses appears with the property—the damage when the weapon is used with two hands to make a melee attack.

5e got rid of technical writing in favor of natural language. I believe the phrase is "any time the rules are unclear aadjudication is left to the GM's discretion"

I didn't factor in flurry because the numbers were showing at will & the option to use flurry/stunning strike/etc needlessly complicates a discussion when the complaint is simply that damage "takes forever to get reasonable" rather than focusing on nondamage things those other abilities are lacking. Since the push now seems to be focused on the plight of monks who choose not to use one of their no cost at will class abilities not dealing enough damage compared to any other class who does can we move on to the critical plight of red dragon sorcerers who don't deal enough damage with ice magic to compete with other casters who make an effort to use their abilities?

 

[UngeheuerLich]

Well, actually, most martials gain a straight bonus to damage when leveling up, on top of extra attacks (Barbs gain a static bonus to damage while raging, which, at higher levels, is "always", and Paladins get Improved Divine Smite at level 11. Fighters are the exception, but they do get two more instances of Extra Attack, at level 11 and 15, and even rogues get scaling damage in the form of Sneak Attack dices, while monks, if you take away the scaling portion of MA, stop scaling at level 5.)

Funny way to look at it... Why do you disregard scaling of martial arts and 20 ki vs 5 ki?

 

[W'rkncacnter]

Spoiler: Yes it does

At 1st level, your practice of martial arts gives you mastery of com bat styles that use unarm ed strikes and monk weapons, which are shortswords and any simple melee weapons that don’t have the two-handed or heavy property.'

Versatile. This weapon can be used with one or two hands. A damage value in parentheses appears with the property—the damage when the weapon is used with two hands to make a melee attack.

versatile is not two-handed. they are separate properties. either way, this doesn't (directly) have anything to do with the martial arts feature that lets you make another attack as a bonus action, it's about what weapons count as monk weapons. if versatile were the same as the two-handed property, then quarterstaffs would not be a monk weapon. they are, so this is irrelevant.

5e got rid of technical writing in favor of natural language. I believe the phrase is "any time the rules are unclear aadjudication is left to the GM's discretion"

except the rules aren't unclear here. any weapon with the two-handed or heavy property isn't a monk weapon. the versatile property is not the two-handed or heavy property. ergo, the quarterstaff is a monk weapon, and you can use it two-handed while getting the unarmed strike from MA or flurry of blows. the end.

I didn't factor in flurry because [..]

i'm gonna be honest, i don't really care. i was just correcting your math.
edit: though it is interesting that even with resource expenditure, monk damage falls off hard at later levels when they have the resources to spam.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

versatile is not two-handed. they are separate properties. either way, this doesn't (directly) have anything to do with the martial arts feature that lets you make another attack as a bonus action, it's about what weapons count as monk weapons. if versatile were the same as the two-handed property, then quarterstaffs would not be a monk weapon. they are, so this is irrelevant.

except the rules aren't unclear here. any weapon with the two-handed or heavy property isn't a monk weapon. the versatile property is not the two-handed or heavy property. ergo, the quarterstaff is a monk weapon, and you can use it two-handed while getting the unarmed strike from MA or flurry of blows. the end.

i'm gonna be honest, i don't really care. i was just correcting your math.
edit: though it is interesting that even with resource expenditure, monk damage falls off hard at later levels when they have the resources to spam.

While I agree woth your first points, I think your last assessment is not 100% correct:

If you just go down to level 19, monks can very well compare with a fighter who by then has just 3 attacks.
The fighter has some tricks upon its sleeve (action surge/ battle master dice), but at that point the monk is incredibly fast, has probably quite some AC and a way more powerful version of the fighter's indomitable, which essentially means that they are very hard to catch/dominate.

On top, they have stunnig strikes in abundance and with tasha's even a better version of second wind for sustenance and a different version of precision attack. Also, with tasha, they can add some strikes to subclass abilities that use Ki and an action.
And this is all without counting the actual subclasses.

Add in the playtest feats: tavern brawler amd grappler, the new grapple/shove rules and bonusactionless offhand attacks and you are looking at quite some powerful class that might deal more damage than a fighter due to superior mobility.

 

[W'rkncacnter]

While I agree woth your first points, I think your last assessment is not 100% correct:

If you just go down to level 19, monks can very well compare with a fighter who by then has just 3 attacks.
The fighter has some tricks upon its sleeve (action surge/ battle master dice), but at that point the monk is incredibly fast, has probably quite some AC and a way more powerful version of the fighter's indomitable, which essentially means that they are very hard to catch/dominate.

On top, they have stunnig strikes in abundance and with tasha's even a better version of second wind for sustenance and a different version of precision attack. Also, with tasha, they can add some strikes to subclass abilities that use Ki and an action.
And this is all without counting the actual subclasses.

ok, but this is all utility/crowd control, not damage. my point was just about damage, because tetra's was too.

Add in the playtest feats: tavern brawler amd grappler, the new grapple/shove rules and bonusactionless offhand attacks and you are looking at quite some powerful class that might deal more damage than a fighter due to superior mobility.

ok, but that's not the current monk. i am very curious to see how the playtest monk will play - but it's not the current monk.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

ok, but that's not the current monk. i am very curious to see how the playtest monk will play - but it's not the current monk.

No. This is not. Which is why I stated it last.
The rest of my arguments are still valid.

Sometimes defense opens up the way for offense.
I mean, in soccer, you play with defenders too. If the fighter with bad will saves, even with indomitable (and about a +0 or +1 bonus on its save) will just be taken out of combat, they will do 0 damage.
The monk likely has a +10 bonus and can spend ki for a reroll on a failure.
Or later a fighter can be imprisoned by walls of force. A monk can become etheral and just walk out.

 

[Bill Zebub]

No. This is not. Which is why I stated it last.
The rest of my arguments are still valid.

Sometimes defense opens up the way for offense.
I mean, in soccer, you play with defenders too. If the fighter with bad will saves, even with indomitable (and about a +0 or +1 bonus on its save) will just be taken out of combat, they will do 0 damage.
The monk likely has a +10 bonus and can spend ki for a reroll on a failure.
Or later a fighter can be imprisoned by walls of force. A monk can become etheral and just walk out.

White rooms don’t have walls of force!!!!

 

[Njall]

Funny way to look at it... Why do you disregard scaling of martial arts and 20 ki vs 5 ki?

Because you're still limited by action economy. You can only flurry once/round, you aren't going to flurry more than 5 times in a 5-round fight anyway, so how much ki you get is not that relevant, as long as you get the amount of short rests/day the rules assume.
And all of the other features I listed are either permanent or last for the whole fight anyway.

Edit: for context, this was the post I was responding to:

If we compare it to other martials though it doesn't fit. Almost all martials start the game with a 1d8 damage and some defense (shield), or 2d6 if they want to commit to high offense. However, there damage generally only scales through more attacks, there are very few true "straight damage buffs" except through a few subclasses.

So yeah, I disregarded MA scaling because my point was that removing MA scaling pretty much takes damage scaling with level away from monks.

 

[Njall]

Possible translation: “Every martial class has an ability that makes damage scale. If you don’t count one of them, that class doesn’t have one.”

???


Now, maybe the monk doesn’t scale well enough to keep up, but it does scale.

Monks do scale as long as you keep MA scaling.
I was just disagreeing with the idea that damage scaling (coming from class abilities other than Extra Attack) doesn't fit with the concept of bounded accuracy and bringing some examples of other martial classes that do seem to get some form of damage bonus.
As I wrote, whether or not the amount of damage the monk gets is enough to keep up is another matter.

So my issue with patient defense is that it's basically the caster model: you have a pool of a resource to spend, and it would be a benefit on almost any round it's used, so the 'game' is just deciding if it would be more useful now or later, with almost no information on which to base that decision. It's a game of 'what are the fewest number of resources I need to spend to win this fight.' And that's the caster model of play.

Ideally, the game gives you enough elements to decide whether you'd be better off using Patient Defense or Flurry of Blows in a round.
Going toe-to-toe with the BBEG while the rest of the front line tries to hold back and kill some mooks? Outnumbered? Patient Defense.
Need to kill that guard before they call for reinforcements? Flurry away.
Yeah, I'd love to see more "tactical" management in the game, rather than "strategic" management (of stuff like Ki and Expertise Dice), but that's not how monks are built.