monster LA, ECL, and extra hit dice

[Droogie]

I have a player that wants to start up a bugbear, which is ECL 4 (3 HD of "humanoid levels" and a Level Adjustment of +1).

Do you think it would be okay to swap out the humanoid levels for class levels of the players choice? It seems to make sense, since I feel the LA +1 takes into account the bugbears racial bonuses alone, like stat bonuses and natural armor. However, another player has the counter-arguement that the LA+1 takes into account the fact that "humanoid" levels are not as good as class levels, and that a bugbear starting with 3 HD of rogue rather than "bugbear" should have an LA of +2.

What exactly do these 3 bugbear levels represent? Actual levels of a "class" that were earned through experience? If thats the case, I can see swapping them out for something better a viable option. Why not go for a better class if it costs the same in xp and the character has the means? However, if it simply represents sheer physical power, I can see the other side of the debate.

Thoughts?

 

[Arkhandus]

They represent the bugbear's natural development to adulthood and natural bulk/physical power. Just like you wouldn't see a full-grown T-Rex with only 1 hit die, because an adult T-Rex is just a whole heck of a lot tougher, automatically, than an adult human, regardless of how incredibly, incredibly stupid it is, and regardless of how little it actually learns by adulthood. Even a baby T-Rex would probably have 1 or 2 full hit dice at least, if not 3 or something, from sheer size and physical power.

The bugbear's Level Adjustment pretty much makes up for its ability score adjustments....but maybe not even quite that much, since they have +4 Str, +2 Dex, and +2 Con, with just a -2 Cha along with it (basically irrelevant to a warrior-type or a non-social rogue). It might make up for those modifiers, though.

Other than that, though, bugbears have Scent, Darkvision, +3 Natural Armor, and +4 Move Silently. That's just too much, normally, for an LA +0 race, so if you cut out the bugbear's racial hit dice, you're probably looking at an LA +2 race in total. Maybe not a terribly powerful LA +2, but a decent LA +2 perhaps.

 

[Herzog]

If you look in (for instance) races of stone, you will find races with both LA and racial hit dice. (can't remember which one right now, I think it is StoneChild, but I'm not sure)

The book also provides a racial progression chart, allowing you to take monster levels instead of having to start at the LA+HD level.
Each monster level includes some of the special abilities.

From that, I deduce that if you want to replace racial HD with class levels, you will also need to strip off some of the special abilities.

Herzog

 

[FEADIN]

Savage Species has that kind of exemple, breaking down the monsters by levels.

 

[Droogie]

Other than that, though, bugbears have Scent, Darkvision, +3 Natural Armor, and +4 Move Silently. That's just too much, normally, for an LA +0 race, so if you cut out the bugbear's racial hit dice, you're probably looking at an LA +2 race in total. Maybe not a terribly powerful LA +2, but a decent LA +2 perhaps.

Thank you for the insight, folks. For the record, bugbears don't actually have scent, but I nitpick.

I think I agree with you; however, playing a LA +2 monster is never fun in my experience. How about if I dropped the +4 to Move Silently? I don't see bugbears as very sneaky IMC anyway. Also I forgot to mention that I'm using Pathfinder, so they are losing the +4 to Stealth, which you could consider two skills in one. Good enough to drop them to LA +1 , perhaps?

 

[Nifft]

There's already an LA +1 goblinoid: the Hobgoblin (which is a tad on the weak side).

Look at how much better the Bugbear is than that. Seriously, Bugbear is a good package. The ability boosts alone are too good for just LA +1, but it also gets darkvision, natural armor, and the skill boosts. Taking away the skill boosts isn't enough.

Cheers, -- N

 

[Infiniti2000]

For the record, bugbears don't actually have scent, but I nitpick.

This is another really annoying habit of HyperText SRD. It says: "Special Qualities: Darkvision 60 ft., scent." This line is not found in the MM or errata. However, in its defense, bugbears that aren't player characters do in fact get scent.

Still, Nifft speaks truly. Those are some awesome ability boosts.

 

[Droogie]

There's already an LA +1 goblinoid: the Hobgoblin (which is a tad on the weak side).

Look at how much better the Bugbear is than that. Seriously, Bugbear is a good package. The ability boosts alone are too good for just LA +1, but it also gets darkvision, natural armor, and the skill boosts. Taking away the skill boosts isn't enough.

Cheers, -- N

Guess I could drop the +2 to dex, then. And maybe the natual armor to +2. I'd like to try to leave the Str at +4, only because I like the idea of the ultimate bruiser player race.

 

[Elethiomel]

For reference, Catfolk get +4 dex, +2 cha, +1 natural armour, and +10' speed and are LA +1. They are a very, very strong LA +1.

 

[rgard]

Guess I could drop the +2 to dex, then. And maybe the natual armor to +2. I'd like to try to leave the Str at +4, only because I like the idea of the ultimate bruiser player race.

Check out the Drow Racial Class in the Drow of the Underdark book. They take the Drow racial benefits and spread them out over the first 4 levels. The character doesn't get class levels at 2nd and 4th level. Those are the 2 levels in exchange for the +2 LA. You could do the same for the bugbear over 6 levels with 3 of the character levels being non-class levels.

Thanks,
Rich