Monster Manual 2 and Elite/Solo design

[Rhuarc]

However, letting Orcus make a Wand of Orcus attack on multiple opponents in a round without spending an action point is going to lead to a bunch of weakened conditions, which doesn't seem like much fun.

True, and I wouldn't suggest this as well. Though you could say that the Wand of Orcus has a limited amount of channeled power available each round. This power will be enough to weaken a lone enemy, but wouldn't be sufficient to do the same to several creatures at once.
Just an example to explain the lack of a condition within the game

The above power seems a little bland (and it needs an attack bonus ), but it's more or less what you get if you try to avoid making a Close attack an explicit Wand of Orcus attack (with the associated Weakened effect).

Of course, I didn't try to come up with a really flavorful ability, but the thing is that most of the more interesting powers have some conditions associated with them and, at least I, don't want to throw them around in every round.
Furthermore is it completely fine for a brute to just dish out some major damage for once, in my opinion

Plus, Orcus is getting pretty strong at this point; he's only a level 33 Solo, after all

Uhm, that's something I'm not that concerned about. After all should he be the very last boss of a whole campaign, the final foe of your level 30 characters. I admit that I don't have any experience with fights at this level yet, but almost all of the epic destinies look darn powerful to me. I guess they would be able to handle this, though I could be wrong.

 

[Victim]

Uhm, that's something I'm not that concerned about. After all should he be the very last boss of a whole campaign, the final foe of your level 30 characters. I admit that I don't have any experience with fights at this level yet, but almost all of the epic destinies look darn powerful to me. I guess they would be able to handle this, though I could be wrong.

Sort of.

Something threatening to a party of Demigods all dropping their Divine Regeneration would probably be overwhelming to most other groups, or if those dailies are unavailable.

 

[AllisterH]

One interesting thing we haven't examined is DM-created elites and solos by applying the DMG templates.....Should this be changed in the DMG2 section dealing with modifying monsters...

There are some very sick Elites/Solos that one can create by simply applying one template to many of the MM2 entries.

Savage Berserker Template + Humanoid with a basic attacks that does stuff such as either the Erinyes Devil or the Shocktroop Devil...

 

[Elric]

Sort of.

Something threatening to a party of Demigods all dropping their Divine Regeneration would probably be overwhelming to most other groups, or if those dailies are unavailable.

In fact, Divine Regeneration inspired one of my proposed changes to Orcus, since this ability hits Divine Regeneration particularly hard.

3) Add to Aura of Death: “While Orcus is bloodied, enemies in the aura regain only half the normal amount of hit points when they would regain hit points.”

As you mention, it's tricky to threaten a party where each character has Divine Regeneration available without creating an encounter too tough for non-Demigod parties. Epic level parties often have extremely potent daily powers, and the party's ability to take on tough challenges is going to vary greatly with how many of these are still available. Divine Regeneration is one of the most powerful of the bunch.

Resistances are another problem; Orcus's Aura of Death could vary from quite potent to mostly useless depending on whether the party has almost no necrotic resistance, or every character has Necrotic Resistance 10-15. Necrotic damage is common (see http://www.enworld.org/forum/d-d-4t...-statistics-monster-manual-7.html#post4762371), and in a campaign that features Orcus as the ultimate villain it will probably be even more common, leading players to pick up items that grant necrotic resistance. Edit: That post's data is based on Compendium searches, which might be somewhat biased upwards for necrotic damage compared to a typical campaign's monsters if it includes Open Grave. Still, there are a ton of items that grant necrotic resistance in PH and AV, probably more than any other resistance type.

The Atropal, part of the MM's suggested encounter with Orcus, has an attack power that temporarily negates necrotic resistance, which helps lessen this disparity.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Howdy Elric!

Here’s my take on modifying Orcus (MM, pg 206), taking into account MM2’s changes to solo design guidelines. With a little work, Orcus can become a more interesting and dangerous opponent, while staying true to the basics and the theme of his MM version. Thoughts appreciated.

Only have a few minor points to make.

1) Reduce HP from 1,525 to 1,320; Change Bloodied from 762 to 660.
Reduce AC by 2, Fort/Ref/Will by 3. This gives AC 46; Fortitude 48; Reflex 43, Will 46

Start by changing Orcus to give him -20% HP and -2 to defenses according to MM2’s design guidelines. I’ve subtracted a little more from F/R/W because even with -2, they’d be well above the 12+level average recommended in the DMG (pg 184). In accord with the change in solo design, HP for a solo=[(level+1)*8+Con]*4 (in MM1, solos at Paragon/Epic have *5 here instead of *4). This would equal 1,220 HP. I’ve added 100 to this because the solo HP formula is independent of role, but as a Brute Orcus has 1 lower AC than baseline AC of 14+level (after my above change to his defenses; note that this is 1 higher than typical Brute AC); otherwise, he wouldn’t gain anything for this AC loss.

As you know I favour the idea of 10 hp base for solo brutes giving him 1492 hp.

2) Increase the Wand of Orcus’s damage by 2d12 to 4d12+12 damage (plus 1d12 necrotic damage, as before).

Is the default for additional energy damage to:

a) Equal the base damage dice...in this case +4d12
b) Equal 1/2 the base damage dice...in this case +2d12
c) Equal one extra dice (of the same type) per tier...in this case +4d12

You coul also say that, being a weapon it should get a crit bonus.

Something like 4d12 + 12 (Crit: 9d12 + 60*) plus 4d12 necrotic...that should sort out the men from the boys.

*The 9d12 is due to Orcus being the equivalent of a Level 42 standard monster (in terms of EXP), thus giving him a magic threshold of +9. You could always change that to 7d12 though I suppose. I'm not sure what the exact protocol is in this regard.

Increase Tail Lash’s damage by 2d8 to 4d8+12 damage. Add “Special: While Orcus is bloodied, Tail Lash becomes a minor action, usable once a round (it’s no longer an immediate reaction).”

Would it be an idea to give the tail slash some ongoing poison damage (say 20), so that he has some surprises for those stacking on necrotic defenses?

I increased the number of damage dice on Orcus’s at-will attacks by 2 each. Tail Lash changing to a minor action when Orcus is bloodied means that Orcus doesn’t have to move around to ensure he can use it every round, and it increases the amount of damage he can deal to a single foe.

Good idea.

The article D&D Alumni: Demogorgon says that to modify Orcus in accord with MM2’s solo guidelines, reduce his HP by 20%, give him -2 defenses, and increase his damage while bloodied by 50%. This seems insufficient. On the approximation that Orcus spends half his time bloodied, this amounts to +25% damage, which could compensate for -20% HP (on the further approximation that monster damage dealt per encounter is proportional to fight length, and fight length is proportional to monster HP, this works out to the same average damage per encounter), but not -2 to defenses as well. So I’ve done more than just increase Orcus’s damage by 25% (higher level MM1 monsters seem low on damage in the first place).

3) Add to Aura of Death: “While Orcus is bloodied, enemies in the aura regain only half the normal amount of hit points when they would regain hit points.”

Bloodying Orcus should be a big deal. The change to Orcus’s Aura of Death lets you know that it is. A DM should allow a monster Knowledge check, DC 35 Arcana, to give the party at least a clue that they should use healing abilities before he’s bloodied. Something like: “It is said that when Orcus is injured, his anger can rip out the souls of his enemies.”

Cool.

4) Touch of Death: Change from recharge 6 to: “recharges when first blooded.”
Change the miss effect to: “Miss: The target takes necrotic damage equal to its bloodied value. This cannot reduce the target below 0 HP.”

Making Touch of Death an encounter power with an automatic recharge prevents Orcus from getting lucky and recharging it several times, or getting unlucky and never recharging it. Normally, recharge powers are fine, but this is such a strong attack that the number of times it recharges will have significant impact on the fight. As written, Orcus would sometimes prefer missing with Touch of Death to hitting, so I changed it so this is no longer the case.

Good stuff!

5) Change Necrotic Burst: Close Burst 10; targets enemies; +38 vs. Fortitude; 2d12+12 necrotic damage, and all undead in the burst regain 20 hit points.

As written, Orcus could accidentally kill most of his undead minions when he uses this power, because if they don’t have necrotic resistance this power’s average damage exceeds the HP that undead regain. Oops! This isn’t just a theoretical concern; the undead level 26 Couatl Mockery minion in Open Grave (pg 185) has no necrotic resistance.

Its a recharge 6 against multiple targets, by my estimation...

Immortality

...thats a 6d10+12 attack.

I'd also give it a miss for half damage attribute.

6) Add: Implacable Foe: Whenever an attack or effect imposes a condition (defined on page 277 of the PH), besides marked, Orcus can make a saving throw (without his usual +5 saving throw bonus) to be unaffected by that condition, even against an effect that doesn’t normally allow a save.

Implacable Foe is an important change. Orcus gains Implacable Foe because of issues about the effectiveness of status effects when used on solos. See the discussion here the basic issue is that since a solo has the offense of multiple normal monsters, a power that takes away a round of a solo’s offense can be too strong.

Still examining the options on this, something I know you have thoroughly researched so I'll defer to your god self on the matter.

 

[Dr_Ruminahui]

Anyone know when the FAQ will be out for MM2? I just bought my copy and am reading through it... I noticed in addition to the Behir's minor action to not regurgitate when it only has standard actions, there is a problem with the Angel of Light.

In particular, the Angel of Light's Death Burst - its a close burst versus enemies only, +x vs. fort... but what does it do? Sure, it has an effect that heals allies, but as an effect you don't have to hit for that to work...

 

[Elric]

As you know I favour the idea of 10 hp base for solo brutes giving him 1492 hp.

If you end up with Orcus having 1492 HP, you'd want to decease his defenses to exactly what the MM formulas give; -1 AC/Fort/Will on top of my previous changes, I'd say.

Is the default for additional energy damage to:

a) Equal the base damage dice...in this case +4d12
b) Equal 1/2 the base damage dice...in this case +2d12
c) Equal one extra dice (of the same type) per tier...in this case +4d12

You could also say that, being a weapon it should get a crit bonus.

Something like 4d12 + 12 (Crit: 9d12 + 60*) plus 4d12 necrotic...that should sort out the men from the boys.

I'm not sure there is a default for additional energy damage. Whatever makes the overall damage dealt look reasonable. Overall damage of 8d12+12 on an at-will (at +1 to hit over normal Brute attack bonus) that also weakens seems high, even for a level 33 Solo Brute, and dealing 145 average damage on a critical doesn't seem like much fun.

As a solo with 4x the HP of a normal monster, it seems like Orcus should have offense that's a little under 4x as powerful as a typical monster of his level/role (see the discussion here). If you want his offense to be significantly stronger than it is now, either Orcus needs to lose something on the defensive end or he should be higher level.

Would it be an idea to give the tail slash some ongoing poison damage (say 20), so that he has some surprises for those stacking on necrotic defenses?

Orcus doesn't have any other poison themed abilities as written, and he doesn’t need to deal 20 ongoing poison damage here. His Tail Lash (with my changes) already does 30 average damage on a hit, stuns for a round, and knocks prone. That’s a little less damage than one might expect for a Brute of his level, and he can’t necessarily use it every round before he’s bloodied (though with Teleport, it should be quite often), but stunned for a round + knocked prone is a nasty set of conditions. Side note: I agree with you that the high damage expression table in the DMG seems too close to the medium damage expression at higher levels.

Its a recharge 6 against multiple targets, by my estimation...

Immortality

...thats a 6d10+12 attack.

I'd also give it a miss for half damage attribute.

Unlike most multi-attacks, Orcus’s Necrotic Burst will likely hit all of his enemies each time it’s used because it’s Close Burst 10. Also, at +38 vs. Fortitude, its attack bonus is much better than a typical Brute multiattack power vs. FRW for his level (+32 vs. FRW would be typical). It will probably heal each of his allies for 20 HP due to the radius. You could increase the damage a little, but this is already a strong attack.

Still examining the options on this, something I know you have thoroughly researched so I'll defer to your god self on the matter.

I haven’t come to any firm conclusions on the matter, but Implacable Foe is simple and easy to run, which is why I’m using it for Orcus here.

 

[evilbob]

Here’s my take on modifying Orcus (MM, pg 206)...

1) Reduce HP from 1,525 to 1,320; Change Bloodied from 762 to 660.
Reduce AC by 2, Fort/Ref/Will by 3. This gives AC 46; Fortitude 48; Reflex 43, Will 46

I have to admit, the following - while a bit bitter - is honestly what I believe based on my own experiences fighting solos of all tiers.

First, all solos from level 12 and down should absolutely follow the rules in the MM2: 20% fewer HP (at a minimum! 30% fewer would be better) and slightly more powerful attacks. Maybe, 10% more powerful across the board upped to 50% more when bloodied. However, solos that are level 13 and up probably need more HP, not fewer. I'm very specifically picking level 13 because that's when the first (and not the last) game-altering power, Storm of Blades, is available to the party. Once the party has access to this power, solos go from 10-20 round boring slugfests to whimpering 2 or 3 round pitifulness. Yes, that's right: I'm saying that based on my own experience, solos need redesigning based on the assumption that they will take a minimum of 2 or 3 SoB attacks within the first round (probably 2 per character, maybe 2 characters using this power). Second, all solos over level 13 could stand to have a "triggered when bloodied" attack - like a dragon's breath - mostly because that's one of the few attacks they are guaranteed to use even when they are killed in 1 round.

Next, epic-level solos probably don't need their defenses lowered because that's the only thing even close to stopping the wizard or the ranger from killing them in one round. Orcus in particular shouldn't have his will defense lowered by 2, or else the 1-hit wizard will kill him 10% easier. AC probably shouldn't be lowered, either, just because that makes it slightly harder for the support character(s) who gives him a -8 to his AC to hit him in the first place.

Now, if you're dead-set on lowering defenses, you'll need to make him immune to stun/sleep/daze/etc. AND he'll need some kind of power that can avoid simple 10+ hit locks, like "once you've taken your healing surge's value in damage from one character you automatically teleport 10 squares" as an immediate interrupt or something like that. No wait - immediate interrupt isn't a good mechanic because you can't use those when you're under certain conditions - well, it'll just have to happen as a non-action, then.

As I said, this may sound trite, but I couldn't be more serious. Solos past level 13 are misunderstood: they shouldn't be the big-bad final boss; they are best used to soak the 5-6 SoB-like attacks that will be coming (there are several), wizard dailies, and other game-breaking powers so that the REAL boss won't go down in less than 1 round of combat. Well, that's what they end up being, anyway.

 

[keterys]

A bare handful of broken attacks are not a good impetus to change the core design of Solos - it's a good reason to fix those attacks. Blade Cascade was already fixed, how Storm of Blades got through staggers the imagination.

 

[Regicide]

A bare handful of broken attacks are not a good impetus to change the core design of Solos - it's a good reason to fix those attacks. Blade Cascade was already fixed, how Storm of Blades got through staggers the imagination.

WotC makes them faster than they fix them. A general fix to monsters is probably the better idea. They really are little more than punching bags as it is.