Monster Manual 2 and Elite/Solo design

[Runestar]

Increase Tail Lash’s damage by 2d8 to 4d8+12 damage. Add “Special: While Orcus is bloodied, Tail Lash becomes a minor action, usable once a round (it’s no longer an immediate reaction).”

I like this change, but it also reminds me of another factor which has been irritating me for quite some time now - namely that Orcus makes very poor use of the action economy, since he has no swift action abilities available to him!

This means that every round, he attacks once, then moves, even if it may not necessarily be in his best interests to move. At least with an at-will swift power, he can use it 1/round, and maybe convert his move to another swift if he does not need to move.

I think it may be better to convert his tail lash to a swift action ability usable at all times. He still retains the ability to lash out with it as an immediate action, and designate another ability while bloodied (or the ability to lash out could be his bloodied ability).

Though personally, I would prefer for him to have 1 move, 1 standard, 1 swift and 1 interrupt ability, so he can maximize his action quota for the each round.

Compare this with demogorgon, who gets to move into a choice square, attack with 2 standard-action powers, follow up with 2 swift-action powers, potentially 1 more with action point, then move away. He clearly makes much more efficient use of the actions allotted to him.

 

[CapnZapp]

swift action

???

 

[Rhuarc]

Great changes Elric, pretty much optimal in my opinion!
Though I consider to give him one or two more encounter/recharge powers, to keep the combat more interesting as he has more options available to him. Not the greatest cilmatic battle if your BBEG has to rely only on at-will attacks in the third round already, in my opinion.

 

[Runestar]

???

Sorry, I meant to say minor action.

 

[Elric]

I think it may be better to convert his tail lash to a swift action ability usable at all times. He still retains the ability to lash out with it as an immediate action, and designate another ability while bloodied (or the ability to lash out could be his bloodied ability).

Two uses a round of an attack that stuns doesn't seem like much fun. I was also trying to make a bloodied Orcus feel like less of a skirmisher; Orcus wants to use Hit and Teleport tactics to take advantage of his Tail Lash power before he's bloodied, and changing it to a minor action turns him into more of a brawler. If you make Tail Lash a minor action all the time, then you never get the transition from "skirmisher Orcus" to "brute Orcus."

Great changes Elric, pretty much optimal in my opinion!
Though I consider to give him one or two more encounter/recharge powers, to keep the combat more interesting as he has more options available to him. Not the greatest climatic battle if your BBEG has to rely only on at-will attacks in the third round already, in my opinion.

Thanks! Since Orcus is a brute, maybe a recharge power that's like his Wand of Orcus, but also pushes and knocks prone?

Something like:

Overpowering Strike (standard action, recharge 5/6)
Orcus makes a Wand of Orcus attack. On a hit, the target is pushed 3 squares and knocked prone.

 

[Rhuarc]

Something like:

Overpowering Strike (standard action, recharge 5/6)
Orcus makes a Wand of Orcus attack. On a hit, the target is pushed 3 squares and knocked prone.

Looks like a good one!

Maybe another area attack power as well:

Sweeping Death (standard action, encounter, only usable while bloodied)
Close Burst 4, 3d12+12 damage


These should be enough to keep Orcus' options above at-wills for most of the time and supports his Brute role.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hello Elric!

The monster roles are clearly meant to be roughly equal. However, that doesn't mean the solution to "soldiers are the best role" is "make all other monsters as powerful as soldiers." One should probably try to adjust roles using the current median strength role as a baseline.

Exactly. The Soldier seems to be the fly in the ointment. I think maybe removing the Initiative Bonus and lowering its defenses by 2 and lowering its attack vs. defenses by 2 would help.

Looking at the MM Solo Artillery, the Blue Dragons, Beholder Eye Tyrant (Disintegrate ray!), and Primordial Naga deal more damage than most solos of a different role at a similar level. So as written, it might make sense to go back and adjust their HP. It's hard to evaluate MM Lurker Solos, because the only one is the Black Dragon (which has the powerful and annoying Cloud of Darkness).

Good spot. All the evidence suggests the base hit point totals for roles should be kept for solo monsters.

 

[Elric]

Exactly. The Soldier seems to be the fly in the ointment. I think maybe removing the Initiative Bonus and lowering its defenses by 2 and lowering its attack vs. defenses by 2 would help.

Soldiers don't need all defenses lowered by 2. According to the DMG's guidelines (pg 184), their AC is supposed to be the only defense higher than average. However, for MM1 monsters, soldiers have noticeably higher Fort defenses than 12+level, even though Reflex and Will average almost 12+level (see http://www.enworld.org/forum/d-d-4th-edition-rules/229092-lots-statistics-monster-manual.html). Soldiers should be designed with the same average FRW defenses as other roles in the first place.

If you were to lower soldier AC and to-hit by 2 vs other defenses, soldiers would have the same stats as skirmishers, without any major advantages to make up for skirmisher mobility.

A soldier's better to-hit bonus ends up making attacks that impose conditions significantly stronger (I think someone else mentioned this earlier in the thread). Soldiers that impose serious conditions with their attacks should have a lower attack bonus. For example, the Ghoul's claw attack is at level+7 vs. AC and it immobilizes and sets the target up for the very powerful Ghoulish Bite.

There's also the problem of soldiers with excessive AC; 16+level is probably fine, but 17+level with an ability that adds 2 more (Hobgoblin Soldiers) can get out of hand.

Good spot. All the evidence suggests the base hit point totals for roles should be kept for solo monsters.

I wonder to what extent the game design assumes that artillery monsters can ensure they're targeted less in combat (to compensate for low HP) by virtue of having ranged attacks and melee monsters/good position to prevent attackers from getting to them. A (lone) solo artillery might have this ability at a very powerful level (if it flies and its attacks are all ranged; e.g., the Beholder), or it might not have it at all (if it doesn't fly and its best attacks are melee, e.g., the Naga). Another design point to keep in mind.

 

[Elric]

Looks like a good one!

Maybe another area attack power as well:

Sweeping Death (standard action, encounter, only usable while bloodied)
Close Burst 4, 3d12+12 damage

These should be enough to keep Orcus' options above at-wills for most of the time and supports his Brute role.

Thanks. The reason I didn't add a Close Burst/Blast attack for Orcus above is that his two at-wills that the Burst/Blast could be based on are his Tail Lash and Wand of Orcus. Wand of Orcus is the more thematic ability for him to carve through a bunch of enemies with.

However, letting Orcus make a Wand of Orcus attack on multiple opponents in a round without spending an action point is going to lead to a bunch of weakened conditions, which doesn't seem like much fun. The above power seems a little bland (and it needs an attack bonus ), but it's more or less what you get if you try to avoid making a Close attack an explicit Wand of Orcus attack (with the associated Weakened effect). Plus, Orcus is getting pretty strong at this point; he's only a level 33 Solo, after all

 

[lukelightning]

I'm wary of overusing the "more powerful when bloodied" characteristic. It seems so, dare-I-say, videogamey, like fighting Gannon and all of a sudden you think he's beaten...then he's more powerful! Then you beat him again and go to the next stage....