Monster Manual 2 and Elite/Solo design

I was reading the DMG on Solos, and it says they are 4x the HP until 10th level.

Having a look through the MM, it looks like this the case.

So how does this relate to the new system? Is it only high level monsters that should be adjusted down?

From looking at the Adamantine Dragons (and comparing them to the red ones), it seems they use the x4 multiplier all the way up to level 30 now, instead of switching to x5 when you hit the paragon tier.

From the MM2 samples it seems the new paradigm is to give solos multiple turns per round, with metallic dragons as the exception. I didn't see any solos listed with +50% damage when bloodied, though. Maybe that's just Orcus v2.0. :confused:

The suggestion of using 10 as the HP factor for brutes instead of 8 makes sense to me given their low defenses. I was considering lowering the HP of lurker and artillery solos to a factor of 6 as well (for flavor reasons), but that might be overkill. :p
 

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The question becomes whether the damage difference is enough. By my reckoning they are a net 40% down on the soldier (20% more likely to get hit and 20% less likely to hit) which is the closest class.

Soldiers may be the closest role concept-wise, but they're probably the strongest role, on average, because of their great AC/attack bonus. So I don't think Brutes need to make it all the way to a Soldier's level of power.

The main problem is that the damage doesn't factor ability score bonuses. So personally I would return Brute solos to using the 10 hp base.

For MM1 Paragon/Epic solos, returning Brutes to the 10 HP base but multiplying Paragon/Epic solo HP by x4 instead of x5 would leave them with -Con score HP compared to their current HP. That’s an easy change, numerically. However, if you did this, would you also want to change Solo Artillery/Lurker HP so it mirrors their 6 HP base? That’s not clear to me.

There’s a general problem with applying "one-size fits all" solutions to published monsters as WotC changes monster design. If WotC takes steps over time to compensate Brutes/Artillery/Lurkers solos for their adjusted HP, whether you'd want to still apply your original fix to the new solos that were designed with this in mind. Maybe when MM3 comes out they’ll have a podcast where they mention “we found out this was an issue and fixed it in this book” and then you’ll know to modify MM1/MM2 solos accordingly, but I doubt it.

Looking at the Bebilith and Heroslayer Hydra preview (L20 solo brute) (I had forgotten that one), both have effectively greater attack bonuses than the Brute’s standard level +3 vs. AC. The Bebilith reduces enemy AC over the course of the encounter, and the Hydra attacks are at level+5 (the two eldest White Dragons in the MM1 have attacks at level+5 vs. AC as well). So maybe WotC is learning to compensate Solo Brutes better in general.

I don't think the Bebilith deals enough damage.

A Level 18 brute should deal 3d8+7, instead it deals 2d10+6, while its venomous bite deals 2d8+6 (and its a recharge 6 only usable while bloodied).

The Bebilith gets 4 uses of its claws a round, though, and the AC penalty is nasty, so it can deal less than the high damage expression per hit. By the way, I don’t like using the DMG damage expressions straight up, because they lump 3 levels together each time and have some very odd choices (why is it that the “high damage expression” is the same for level 16-18 and 19-21 while the medium and low-damage expressions both increase?) Fitting a line to the high damage expression suggests that level 18 should be 19.8 damage. Not a big difference, but it’s something to consider when designing and evaluating monsters.

I would have made the venomous bite deal 4d12+7.

I still don't think WotC is utilizing the limited damage expressions to their fullest extent.

I agree that Venemous Bite should deal more damage. A recharge on a 6 “only when bloodied” power should be better than its regular attack, but the Bebilith generally won’t want to use Venemous Bite if it has the opportunity to hit two foes with its claws.

The Bebilith's Flaming Web is a minor action, which is strange because the Bebilith doesn't receive any minor actions, but giving it one minor action between its two turns a round would significantly power up its offense.

The last issue with the Bebilith is that having it go at initiative counts 10 and 20 is too late in the round; 25 and 15 would be more appropriate. You don't want the PCs to all beat initiative 20 (which could easily happen with a Warlord with the Combat Commander feat) and have the Bebilith going twice in a row every round.
 

That seems to be the new way of WotC doing things.
Expertise, NAD feats, masterwork heavy armour. WotC sold errata rather often in 4E.

No here plays Magic:TG?

Unless the card doesn't do exactly what it was intnded to do, WOTC will not issue errata on a card.

E.g. For many years, WOTC was trying to improve the green colour and printed many a card that was intended to *FIX* the colour but they never went back and errata'd the older cards...
 

I find it a lot trickier to 'errata' cards than it is to errata a game system.

So, for example, WotC did change the basic rules during that time very slightly (ie, the phases, what each keyword like First Strike, Trample, etc does), banned some cards from most play, but they hardly ever actually change cards such that you'd have to, dunno, sharpie them.

In this case, they could easily have written a rules update in such a way that everyone gets a +1 bonus to attack and all defenses at 11th and 21st. They changed Stealth, Conjurations, and how "Failed Save" effects work in the PH2 for instance.
 

In this case, they could easily have written a rules update in such a way that everyone gets a +1 bonus to attack and all defenses at 11th and 21st.

as i said in the Expertise thread...

We have seen and herd form groups who played through all three teirs of play H,P,E and never found themselves in this slump of "I can't hit" lets call them group A
We have seen and herd from groups who played to paragon and felt the defences went up to much and the game watered down...lets call them group B
We have seen and herd form groups who in epci felt the monsters got to tough. we will call them group C.
We have seen people complain (I may be bias but I give this group the least amount of slack) that right from day one 1st level the game is too hard. we will call them group D.


I have no dubt WotC has herd from all 4 of these groups, and heck they might even have people in office in diffrent groups.

So now lets say they errata +1 to NADS and Attack at 5,15,and 25th...group A will feel it is too easy, group B will feel 5 levesl are too easy, group C will think 20 levels are too easy...group D will most likely prefer this...or they might complain it is still to 'late in the game'
So put yourself in there shoes...how do you work with the most number of people...make it a choice...infact break it down to a few choices.
 


I'd rather that this thread not end up as a discussion of WotC errata policy in general, particularly errata policy as it relates to things like the Expertise feats (which is very far afield from the topic of monster design), as there are plenty of other threads where Expertise is being discussed now or has been discussed recently.
 


1. Aren't SKIRMISHERS the baseline monster? What I mean is that the skirmisher is the "default" role and that designers then justify how a monster should be different from this default?

2. The heroslayer hydra is a weird case though...At first glance, the heroslayer hydra looks like it does more damage than the MMI but when it was previewed, many people pointed out that the heroslayer has absolutely no ranged attacks. In fact, a mordant hydra vs a heroslayer is tilted towards the mordant IMO due to the ranged ability.

3. There isn't THAT much change between MMi and MM2 other than paragon-level solos and above plus minions...The biggest difference is that the WOTC designers seem willing to "stretch" the mechanics...
 


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