Monster Types

[Szatany]

Since 4e is coming, it's time to look at how monsters are categorized. 3e used system of 14 (IIRC) creature types that governed BAB, saves, advancement, skill, and so on. We know 4e is moving away from that direction, making monster design more free-form.
In light of this I ask about your oppinion: Should creature types stay? And some follow ups: if they stay, should subtypes stay or be replaced by abilities (like Fire subtype/Fiery body quality). If the types stay, how would you categorize them and why. Would you prefer a lot of monster types or just a few? Discuss.


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Me personally would like to see it simplified. For example, I'd drop outsiders entirely or made them a subtype (merged with extraplanar I guess). Elementals could encompass constructs and plants.

 

[Li Shenron]

I think I'd like them to stay, but with the following changes:

- BAB, saves, etc are not tied to type
- a creature can have more than one type

And get rid of the useless "augmented" and "native/extraplanar".

 

[Szatany]

I think I'd like them to stay, but with the following changes:

- BAB, saves, etc are not tied to type
- a creature can have more than one type

And get rid of the useless "augmented" and "native/extraplanar".

My point is (well, one of my points ), if BAB, saves and skills and HP is not tied to the creature type, then what is the significance (sp) of the type. How does otherwise identical creature elemental differ from a dragon? Is the different only in how creatures interact with spells and abilities or should it be more inherent?
This is simple with some creatures types: Elementals, for example, could be different in a way that they don't have to sleep, eat, breathe, etc. That's easy. But what's the difference between animal and beast? Humanoid and giant?

 

[Masquerade]

I think I'd like them to stay, but with the following changes:

- BAB, saves, etc are not tied to type
- a creature can have more than one type

And get rid of the useless "augmented" and "native/extraplanar".

I would do the same. Make monster types less like classes and more like spell descriptors. Their main role should be determining whether the creature is affected by favored enemy, turn undead, bane weapons, and the like.

 

[Celebrim]

From what I understand, they are going to drop all 14 types.

They will replace them with what is in essence villain classes: skirmisher, mook, mastermind, brute, etc.

 

[Lackhand]

I've wanted this for years, starting ill-thought-out threads and threadcrapping about it.

It's not threadcrap here! Yay!

I want them to go, but be replaced.
Specifically, I'd like Types, Subtypes, Descriptors, and Templates to be put in a blender (we can set some template and descriptor aside to be used separately, later, but bear with me here), and for someone to press "liquefy".

I'd like having the Demon descriptor stick around, and have some in-game effects.
I'd like the Tanar'ri descriptor to be around, too. Something like a Glabrezu (see how I dodged the succubus bullet? ) would have both; something like a Retriever (did I get my demons right?) might have only the Tanar'ri descriptor, and the Construct descriptor, but not be demonic enough for the Demon descriptor.
Or it might be. I dunno, that's not really what I'm talking about.

I'd like a reptilian descriptor, an avian descriptor, and so on, all of which are *usually* on animals, but sometimes not (a golden construct-bird! Which anti bird effects apply? Ranger favored foe? Some Pazuzu cultist's latest evil power?)

Each descriptor should have some descriptive effect -- Birds fly due to their wings; Demons have damage reduction that can be pierced by blessed weapons and are fairly tolerant to flame, and so on.

I want them on spells, too (AU was great in this respect).

This makes customizing monsters *really* easy. We can already do this, to a degree, but tying the HD/Saves/Skills to the type, rather than the role, means that undead nymphs have their math wrong. It's easy to swap them around, but it's not trivial. With this change, each descriptor has a set of abilities that follow it, and a set of weaknesses that go along; just swap out each menu.

If they're explicitly designed as add-ons, then swapping them is what they're made for.

So I want them to do more than be target signs, but less than types. Things like giving access to complete chunks of rules; the incorporeal subtype is an example of what I like; when it is applied and when it goes away, you know exactly what to change, it's a small list, and it all makes sense.

 

[Szatany]

I would do the same. Make monster types less like classes and more like spell descriptors. Their main role should be determining whether the creature is affected by favored enemy, turn undead, bane weapons, and the like.

I like that. I would take it a step further and integrate some creature types into another. There are few reasons for a ranger to take favored enemy : ooze and there are even less spells that work specifically against them. If creatures can have multiple types, abominations, oozes, dragons and giants should go.
There could be two creature "categories": one dependant on the creature's shape/composition, and the other on there is it from.

First would incorporate:
Mortals (inhabitants of Prime material [3e = animals, beasts, dragons, giants, vermin, plants, humanoids, monstrous humanoids, magical beasts, aberrations, oozes])
Elementals (inhabitants of elemental tempest [3e = elementals, elemental outsider, demons])
Constructs? (created by others from materials)
Outsiders (inhabitants of astral sea and its domains [3e = outsiders])
Fey (inhabitants of Feywild)
Undead (inhabitants of Shadowfell)

Then we can divide creatures by their shape or something
Humanoid (including partial humanoid like centaurs or salamanders)
Formless (mutable shape or goo)
Beast (animalistic, more or less)
Plant

That way much greater diversity is possible.
Golem? humanoid elemental
Dragon? mortal beast
Air Elemental? formless elemental
Beholder? I don't know

 

[Mouseferatu]

From what I understand, they are going to drop all 14 types.

They will replace them with what is in essence villain classes: skirmisher, mook, mastermind, brute, etc.

I don't think those are replacements; I think they're additions.

That is, from what I've seen--and I'm just spitballing here, so I could be way off--I'm thinking that if you compare monsters to PCs, you get the following (rough) analogues:

PC..............Monster
Race...........Creature type
Class/role.....Role/purpose

So, while the monster's purpose may define most of its abilities and stats, its type still has a substantial impact in terms of both mechanics and flavor.

Again, though, just guessing here.

 

[CleverNickName]

I'd like having the Demon descriptor stick around, and have some in-game effects.

I think we can all rest assured that this will be the case. The words "Demon" and "remove" are never mentioned in the same sentence when it comes to 4E speculation. If anything, they are always mentioned in sentences containing "oh gawd yes, more more!!!" But that's a whole other rant.

I would like creature types to stay, but streamline them a bit. I think Elemental should be rolled into Outsider, for example, in the same way that Beast was rolled into Animal when 3.5E was released. I much prefer creature types to creature roles...at least I do at the moment. Ask me again in 2008.

 

[Shroomy]

I think there will be categories similar to types in 4e, but they won't work exactly like the 3.x versions. For one thing, I don't think they will determine BAB, HD/hp, saves, skill point (or probably, trained vs. untrained skills), or weapon/armor proficiencies; those seem to be the province of monster roles. Strip those out of the equation, and you can simplify the type system (humanoids and monstrous humanoids for example). However, there are still some reasons to keep such broad categories:

*interaction with spells and class abilities.
*Knowledge-type identification.
*some types have lots of game mechanic affects and immunities that can be neatly summarized by a type instead of repeated over and over again in the MM: constructs, deathless, elementals, oozes, plants, and undead.