Monster Update: Wights and Ghosts

[keterys]

The "1 hp/lvl" official rule doesn't exist, any more than a surge value rule exists.

If you're out of surges, and a wight hits you... you don't lose any surges.

Some creatures (and skill challenges, and hazards) specify a cost otherwise, and those are the only exceptions to that rule.

Which means it's harder to heal you that fight, sure enough, but all it _really_ ensures is some methods of surge movement are going to take place, or an extended rest, or similar.

 

[Markn]

I'm pretty certain that somewhere a rule exists that if you lose a surge and have none left then you take damage equal to a surge value. Not at home, nor do I want to look it up in ddi but it should exist.

 

[keterys]

It doesn't... and it shouldn't, though the "shouldn't" is harder to explain*.

But it's one of the most common rules mistakes and/or house rules, so eh. Welcome to the party. It's been brought up before as something good for WotC to FAQ, but there's not exactly any urgency attached.

* You get bonuses to your surge value, so you shouldn't be penalized for having those bonuses, so at a minimum it should deal half your bloodied value instead. Further, many effects specify what happens if you run out of surges due to them, so those would need to be further examined. In skill challenges and other times, surges are often removed for fairly random means just to find a daily resource to remove, but if you make those deal surge-value in damage then non-fatal skill challenges can become fatal without design intent, or appropriateness. Finally, surges and damage during combat (or even a skill challenge) are very different things, so you'd need to redesign certain creatures like Nabassu, which deal 3 surges with their surge attack.

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

I don't mean to be snarky, but IMO it's nothing like the "old" energy drain; surges are a daily resource and you won't lose them permanently. However, negative levels in 3E literally meant losing experience levels; you had to recalculate your stats, and there was a risk that you lost these levels permanently (unless you had access to Restoration). Even the best case scenario was that it was a pain to redo the stats, and each hit potentially dropped your HPs, saves and attack bonuses. Often it was a downward spiral for the whole group, unless you had a cleric. It was fear mixed in with frustration, and I don't think temporarily losing surges even compares to it.

In AD&D it was even worse, because there was no saves; if a wight hit you, you automatically and permanently lost a level. Restoration helped, but back then you didn't always have access to it. As leveling up took forever, it felt cruel if the DM used level-draining creatures a lot; back then it was part of the game, but I still remember how unfair it was when all the XP you earned last year just went down the drain, for good.

Heh, ever tried adventuring without healing surges? Not good. I guarantee you any sensible player is going to either get the heck out of there or whack those wights FAST because you REALLY don't want to be wandering around with 1 surge. Especially if you're say a fighter.

No, it is not a permanent loss. I didn't mean to imply the 4e wight is exactly the same thing, just that they can both be scary in an analogous way. This is particularly true if you loose a few of them on the party when they're already up to their necks in some situation where they aren't likely to get a chance to just walk off somewhere and rest. Personally, I rarely give the players that luxury, at least if they do it there are consequences.

 

[Quickleaf]

Maybe, but a healthy amount of damage and _inability to spend healing surges_, the stated alternative, will cause a spike of anxiety during the actual encounter... which is more interesting I think.

Agreed. Plus it would make the PCs scramble to find ways to get temporary HP or non-healing surge healing when facing wights, and might encourage more use of total defense.

I don't miss level drain. It was never a good mechanic.

Yeah, I was thinking some sort of disease could work for wights, gradually stripping you of the ability to heal. That's even scarier than level drain in a way!

 

[fba827]

To expand a little on what keterys just said...

In the DMG, in the section on environmental dangers (starvation, thirst, suffocation) -in that instance- it says explicitly that if you fail your skill check against said environmental dangers (starvation, thirst, suffocation), then you lose a healing surge and if you do not have a healing surge to lose then you lose 1hp/level.

As to why it's 1hp/level, it is true that it doesn't make much sense taken in itself. But if you start thinking of ways that a PC can raise their surge value (through magic items and feats, or a dragonborn with the racial bonus to surge value) you suddenly have an awkward situation where someone who is all customized to be hardy is suddenly the one most winded by starvation compared to the more frail PC who has no such customization and is also starving. The advantage being that it is the hardy PC who is typically less likely to fail the checks to be starving in the first place.

Taking that a step further, it is possible to extend the 1hp/level if no surges remaining to other types of level loss (such as a wights). But doing so is not explicitly spelled out as being applicable to ALL situations where you have no surges remaining. Some might read it as saying that the 1hp/level is just a special situation for environmental dangers while others might think it applicable to any situation where surges could be lost but not available -- so do whatever works for your group's interpretation/preferences.


Personally, I think if a creature is trying to drain the very life out of you and you don't have any surges left, it should still be able to drain something out of you. So the 1hp/level sets a good prescedant. But that's just my opinion and what works for me. You/your group's preferences may vary.

I don't miss level drain. It was never a good mechanic.

Agreed - it was always a sloppy situation where someone would have to try and redo stats on the fly all the while being upset and shocked by whatever just happened to cause it in the first place.
I will say that the raise dead penalty from the 4e ritual is considerably "cleaner" (perfect, no, but cleaner, yes).

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

Agreed. Plus it would make the PCs scramble to find ways to get temporary HP or non-healing surge healing when facing wights, and might encourage more use of total defense.


Yeah, I was thinking some sort of disease could work for wights, gradually stripping you of the ability to heal. That's even scarier than level drain in a way!

A disease track might be a nice variation.

 

[Markn]

* You get bonuses to your surge value, so you shouldn't be penalized for having those bonuses, so at a minimum it should deal half your bloodied value instead. Further, many effects specify what happens if you run out of surges due to them, so those would need to be further examined. In skill challenges and other times, surges are often removed for fairly random means just to find a daily resource to remove, but if you make those deal surge-value in damage then non-fatal skill challenges can become fatal without design intent, or appropriateness. Finally, surges and damage during combat (or even a skill challenge) are very different things, so you'd need to redesign certain creatures like Nabassu, which deal 3 surges with their surge attack.

Thats why its your surge value, not your modified surge value. At any rate, I could be wrong, I will have to see if I can find that rule though I have a very busy week and won't get to it till likely Friday...

 

[keterys]

Good luck - a team of us trying to find rules problems did the search sometime or other, and there wasn't anything, but it may be that Essentials added something since then.

Half bloodied value is the rules nomenclature for "unmodified surge value" though, fwiw.

 

[TerraDave]

I see stat blocks

The ghost fluff was a little more sixth sense then I thought it needed to be.

But overall, very much looking forward the rest.

(And I love the healing surge drain...I have an undeady encounter planned next session with it, though not just it, and wights will certainly be in PCs future).