Monsters and Crits

[Chen_93]

Some monsters deal extra damage on crits. I can't recall exactly which ones but I do recall one monster have a 1d10 +5 damage and then after, in brackets it has (2d10+10 on crits). Is there a reason they wrote out the damage dice in this case? Crits deal max damage so why not write (30 damage on crit) then?

 

[deleteme123456]

It's like having a high crit weapon: you deal extra damage that is not maxed on a crit.

Say you have a 1d10 weapon with high crit. At heroic tier, if you make a melee basic attack with that weapon and roll a crit, you deal 10 + STRMOD + 1d10 damage. You have to roll the high crit. At Paragon that goes to 10+STRMOD+2d10 and at Epic, 20+STRMOD+3d10.

 

[darkadelphia]

Alternatively, it might be an error carried over from a previous iteration where crits were doubled instead of maxed. infocync's idea is consistent with rules elsewhere, but it isn't clear to me that that is what was intended with this particular monster. I would look at DMG 185 and use that to guess which was intended.

 

[deleteme123456]

Actually that's a good catch. If it's printed as 1d10+5 --> 2d10+10, that's not a high crit because the constant modifier is wrong. If that were high crit it would actually be 1d10+15 = (1d10 MAX for 10 + 5 + 1d10 High crit) (which isn't really far off on the expected damage chart).

 

[Chen_93]

To be fair it may be written as 2d10 + 5 (I dont have my books here) but it certainly is NOT written as (1d10+5+1d10). The point was several monsters do more damage on a crit but they simply write out the full set of damage dice + modifier and do not simply write it as "extra" damage. I'm curious if its intended to be maximized (like all crits) or if its intended you roll the dice listed under what happens when the monster crits.

 

[Khime]

I dug through my MM, and only found a few monsters who deal extra damage on a critical hit (though many more do other things on crits).

I found them in two formats. If the damage was a mix of untyped and typed, it looked like this: 1d8 + 12 damage plus 5 necrotic damage (plus an extra 2d6 necrotic damage on a critical hit). Seems pretty straight forward - 1d8+12+5 on a normal attack, 20+5+2d6 on a crit.

The exception I found was for the balor, whose damage is all typed: 2d10 + 10 lightning damage, or 3d10 + 30 lightning damage on a critical hit. That looks like 2d10+10 on a normal attack, which is then maximized to 30 on a crit and has an additional 3d10 to boot. Again, looks straight forward to me.

Can the OP provide the specific example that is causing confusion?

 

[Chen_93]

The exception I found was for the balor, whose damage is all typed: 2d10 + 10 lightning damage, or 3d10 + 30 lightning damage on a critical hit. That looks like 2d10+10 on a normal attack, which is then maximized to 30 on a crit and has an additional 3d10 to boot. Again, looks straight forward to me.

Can the OP provide the specific example that is causing confusion?

I can't recall the exact monster, I was pretty sure it was an orc battlerager or something similar.

The Balor example is a good example though. The 3d10 + 30 appears to add a damage die to the roll and some static damage. But the analysis of it being the 30 (from the crit) + another 3d10 is more logical.

Consider a creature that deals 1d6 + 6 damage but says (2d6 + 12 on crit). At first glance it appears to be doubling his damage. But looking again it could easily be max(1d6 + 6) + 2d6. I don't have my MM here but its possible it was something like this that was throwing me off. It could just be that I interpreted the way they wrote the crit incorrectly...though it would really be more consistent to write it, with the Balor for example, as 30 + 3d10 which would remove some of the confusion.

 

[Mr. Teapot]

Some monsters deal extra damage on crits. I can't recall exactly which ones but I do recall one monster have a 1d10 +5 damage and then after, in brackets it has (2d10+10 on crits). Is there a reason they wrote out the damage dice in this case? Crits deal max damage so why not write (30 damage on crit) then?

Because it doesn't deal 30 damage on a crit. It deals 10 damage plus 2d10 additional damage (for an average damage of 21).

I don't believe the example cited in the first post is real or accurate. The examples I can think of are all like this: 1d10+5 (2d10+15 on a crit). Which makes it clear: the static number is the expected crit value, and the 2d10 additional is extra damage dice dealt on a crit, just like if a PC was wielding a scimitar or a magic weapon. (Remember, when you crit you maximize everything except bonus dice you only get on crits.)

Do you have a monster you can cite where the static part of the crit damage is less than what you'd expect the crit to be from its normal attack value?

Take a look at the Efreet (who are wielding scimitars, so have High Crit): normal 2d10+9, crit 6d10+29. The static part of their crit listing is equal to the maximum damage on their attack normally, then they have bonus damage equal to 3 times the base weapon die of their attack, which is what High Crit gives you at Epic tier.

 

[Mr. Teapot]

I can't recall the exact monster, I was pretty sure it was an orc battlerager or something similar..

Orc Raider, Berserker and Bloodrager all have specific crit damage listings, bu none add more than one d12. Which makes sense: they're wielding a High Crit weapon (a Greataxe) which adds 1(W) are Heroic Tier. The static part of their crits is in each case equal to maximum on their normal attacks.

I do understand where the confusion comes from, though.

 

[Keenath]

Orc Raider, Berserker and Bloodrager all have specific crit damage listings, bu none add more than one d12. Which makes sense: they're wielding a High Crit weapon (a Greataxe) which adds 1(W) are Heroic Tier. The static part of their crits is in each case equal to maximum on their normal attacks.

I do understand where the confusion comes from, though.

Right, exactly. The balor deals 2d10+10 on a hit, and 3d10+30 on a crit -- which is actually maximize(2d10+10) + 3d10.

Similarly, the Orc Berserker deals 1d12 + 5 on a hit, or 1d12 + 17 on a crit -- which is actually maximize(1d12+5) + 1d12.

In both cases, this is what a PC would deal at that level with a high-crit weapon and the given base damage.


So yeah -- if the stat block says you roll something on a crit, you roll it, don't maximize it. It already took the maximized part into account.