D&D 4E Monte Cook on licensing (and 4E in general?)

[Brown Jenkin]

Didn't the OGL come after the release of the 3e system, though?

To expand on what Hong said. Technically the OGL came out a few months after 3E was released. That was the official OGL though. The concept of the OGL was well established long before 3E was released and 3rd party publishers worked under a gentlemen's agreement to use the draft versions with the understanding that future products must comply with the final version once it was done. This is how S&S got their monster book out before the Monster Manual was released.

 

[Pinotage]

To expand on what Hong said. Technically the OGL came out a few months after 3E was released. That was the official OGL though. The concept of the OGL was well established long before 3E was released and 3rd party publishers worked under a gentlemen's agreement to use the draft versions with the understanding that future products must comply with the final version once it was done. This is how S&S got their monster book out before the Monster Manual was released.

Ah, yes, that's right. Thanks. I think 4e will be a success. I don't think there's much doubt about it. But I do think that the GSL and 3rd party support will be vital to sustaining that success.

Pinotage

 

[Imaro]

My own thoughts on this issue are as follows...I really hope WotC has an open license. I feel it is similar to Microsoft vs. open source code. With 3e being open it allowed innovation, development and design to proceed at a faster pace than would have been possible with only WotC designers working on it ( not to mention it allowed WotC to find and hire from the best of the best). I also think that in the end, since 3e is open and so many are familiar with it...there is the possibility it could surpass later iterations of D&D.

Will it happen with 4th...Nope, this type of thing takes time, but the genie is out of the bottle and it's really hard to put it back in once released. I feel that WotC will, if they don't do so with 4th ed., have to go open in the future...especially since their new system is still an iteration of d20 and (theoretically) a 4th ed. clone or even improvement could be developed, and released at a cheaper price point than the 3 core rulebooks.

I personally wouldn't be surprised to see an actual decline in WotC's products as they will...

1. No longer be competing with others who may bring a better quality product (Paizo and adventures)

2. No longer have the enormous pool of talent steadily pushing the boundaries in design that 3e had.

3. Less variety in choices about how one wants to play D&D (I love Privateer Press's Iron Kingdoms and WotC just wasn't willing to push the boundaries when it came to setting design).

I have already decided to purchase the 4e core books...but that doesn't equate to supporting the game...yet. If variety or quality suffers I fully plan on going to Pathfinder. I actually think this is why Paizo may have made a good move in releasing their system after 4th ed. It gives people a chance to actually play 4e and determine it's flaws and bugs so that people can make a real choice...especially if there's no where to look for product except WotC.

 

[Dragonblade]

EN World only represents a fraction of D&D players. I game with about 10 people. None of them but me ever come to EN World.

They play D&D and only D&D and only with WotC books. Where WotC goes, they follow. None of them really care about the GSL or lack thereof.

A couple of them do like Spycraft and M&M. Only one of them is even interested in Pathfinder (but still won't buy it), and most of them only have the vaguest awareness of Paizo's existence.

 

[EATherrian]

If they realize 4E is faster, simpler and easier to learn and play, they will probably switch.

And if it isn't. None of the previews have shown me this. I'm still getting the 'core' three books, but I don't know when I'll get a chance to try this game. 3.5 turned me off some, but 4 is turning me off a lot. I'm going back to Marvel Super Heroes, FASERIP here I come!

 

[kenmarable]

I am also a little disappointed he has written off 4E. (That isn't meant to be loaded language; He wasn't mean about it.) He gave no criticisms, but he has always seemed the coolest and most even tempered of the ex-WotC employees. I expected for him to at least have the rules before reading such a declaration. From prior posts, SKR implied that Monte and he had not seen them. Or perhaps I read too much into it...

If you read his past blogs, he's discussed it previously, and (in my understanding and paraphrasing) it boils down to he's happy with a house ruled 3.5. It does what he wants it to do and works very well for him.

I'm of a similar opinion. I have a game I really enjoy playing and shelves of material to keep me busy for years to come (and at least Paizo offering to keep me supplied), so why would I need a new edition? But that's just for me, and opinions will vary. (The shift from 2e to 3e I actually did want since I was bugged by 2e's problems and limited products. However, for 1e to 2e, I was a silly teenager just wanting the latest shiny book.)


Oh, and for some reason this discussion of whether the OGL/GSL/lack thereof impacts D&D sales as well as whether internet polls mean anything is giving me double deja vu. I'm sure there was a similar thread somewhere around here.... hurm....

 

[Puggins]

I speak from experience: despite my fairly comprehensive 3.5 (& related games) collection, only 2 of the 15 gamers I currently play with have even given 3.5 more than a cursory glance.

These are people with disposable income, but without a lot of spare time. They view the 3.5 revision as unneccessary in both $$$ and devoting time to learning the "new" game.

How do you think they will react to 4Ed?

I think the answer is: Who cares? They stopped being the target demographic a long time ago. I'm not trying to demean them, mind you. Simply put, anyone who wasn't willing to pay for the 3.5e revision isn't going to be part of WotC's long range business plan, since 3.5e apparently sold like gangbusters. If WotC can have hilarious amounts of success without 13 out of 15 guys in your group, then why do you think their opinion matters? They're obviously in a minority.

On a different note- why on earth would they want to upgrade to 3.5e NOW? 3.5e is essentially dead in the water. Paizo is going to release Pathfinder, which is barely 3.5e compatible as far as I can tell, but 3.5e itself is not long for this world. I can see transitioning to Pathfinder, True20 or 4e, since all of those systems will have support going forward. But upgrading to 3.5e once it's mere months away from being tossed out with the sewage? Doesn't compute. You'll get cheap books, sure, but you're insuring no support moving forward and even less of a voice in influencing the modern path of RPGs.

Still, if it works for you, then it's all good.

 

[Warbringer]

Let's be really honest, it's the core-rule-books of Hasbro/Wizards of the Coast that really matter for success, not the adventures. They're just a nice bonus, if at all.

Which is exactly while the OGL was developed

 

[Carnivorous_Bean]

I think the answer is: Who cares? They stopped being the target demographic a long time ago. I'm not trying to demean them, mind you. Simply put, anyone who wasn't willing to pay for the 3.5e revision isn't going to be part of WotC's long range business plan, since 3.5e apparently sold like gangbusters. If WotC can have hilarious amounts of success without 13 out of 15 guys in your group, then why do you think their opinion matters? They're obviously in a minority.

Exactly. Saying that people who won't go beyond 3rd edition won't buy 4th edition isn't really a viable criticism of 4th edition's economic viability, with or without the GSL, because there's nothing that could induce these people to buy 4th edition anyway. Not a criticism of them, just stating the fact that they're not going to buy 4th, whether there are no GSLs, one of them, or 1,000.

I don't see what the problem is, though, with completely dispensing with the GSL. There's no "GSL equivalent" for White Wolf's game systems, for the various Warhammer lines -- heck, for pretty much anything except 3rd edition D&D. And yet, many of these game lines are successful and profitable.

The reason for the OGL was that the d20 system was an attempt to make D&D more generic, more like a "Fudge" system for the polyhedral dice gamers. With the new edition being more "D&D" and less "generic one-size-fits-all toolset," the need for any kind of open game license has, IMO, become far less crucial, if not superfluous.

 

[Thornir Alekeg]

Ah, yes, that's right. Thanks. I think 4e will be a success. I don't think there's much doubt about it. But I do think that the GSL and 3rd party support will be vital to sustaining that success.

Pinotage

Obviously this is very much dependent upon the definition of success.

I think the interest in WotC products will allow 4e to remain a success even without 3rd party support, probably no worse than 3e has been and perhaps even better. Of course I am talking about success from WotC's perspective.

The difference is that without 3rd party products, 4e won't be as vibrant. People will play the game, enjoy the game, but those who do not have the time/drive/creativity to create their own material will have no choice but to stick with whatever WotC is feeding them.

Some will be dissatisfied quickly with that and will leave the 4e fold, while others will take what they can get. A lot would depend upon how good WotC would be at putting out different offerings for people with different tastes, or who are just looking for variety.

If there is no 3rd party stuff and WotC were to take the Henry Ford stance of "You can have it in any color, as long as it's black," then I would not put a lot of stock in the long-term success of 4e.