Monte Cook - Racial Importance

[Number48]

That poll is hard to answer because I want lots of mechanical differences for race, but mechanics that aren't the domain of class or theme. If the mechanics they put into a race are stat bonuses and bonuses to attacks granted by class, no thanks. Although dipping a toe into skills isn't too bad, I don't want too much of that because that is what theme is for. I want racial abilities, primarily not having to do with killing stuff. So, lots of specific types of mechanics or otherwise don't bother.

If you like races to feel different and like lots of options, then the roleplaying game design cooperative I'm working with will have the game for you. I need to get buy-in before I can say this is how it will be, but here's how I see it. First, what not to do. You can't put the great stuff of being a Dwarf under theme, because perhaps I want to play a Dwarf Noble but if they are themes I can only pick one or the other. The other thing, though, is if we are going to have Race, Class and Theme as the pillars of character creation, then they each have a job to do. So the Race mechanics we are working on give lots of meaning and flavor to race but in such a way that it doesn't predispose you to specific Classes or Themes.

The current thought is that your character has a level, the whole character not just his class. So when you hit level 2 you see what you get for race, class and level plus the little extraneous bits like feats. Each of those categories has the "default" progression which has zero choices so as to make for really quick character design and advancement.

As to things like sub-races and half-races, I am proposing Heritage feats. This is where we really let the DM make the game his own. Each feat has a zero-rank, meaning it costs zero feats to acquire it. That level of the feat basically swaps a couple thing with the base race. Each DM can allow or disallow the "free" heritage feats on a per-race basis and that can represent rare individuals (half-elves) or an entire separate race (tieflings). Then the DM can decide to allow or disallow non-free Heritage feats also on a per-race basis. So, to make some of the base races that have appeared, you apply Elven Heritage to a human to get a half-elf. If the half-elf wants to remain more distinct from a human, they can spend feats at creation or later to increase the level of Heritage, plus they can already buy higher ranks in abilities already granted. A tiefling is an Infernal Heritage human and a dragonborn is Draconic Heritage applied to a human, or perhaps a dwarf is a better base race for that. But if you want something more like a half-dragon instead of a dragonborn, if your DM allows it in his game, you could buy the Draconic Heritage for its full feat cost and apply it to your halfling, perhaps maximizing the feat level as quick as possible to emphasize just how dragony he is.

In addition to all that, there will be feats segregated by race that can be taken any time you gain a feat, so you can really be the Dwarfiest Dwarf who ever Dwarfed.

Anyways, wait until you see it. I actually think WotC is going to screw this one up which is inspiring us to create this system.

 

[mkill]

I want racial abilities to do three things:

* Make the character feel special. Dragonborn breathing fire and Eladrin teleporting are iconic abilities that set a character apart

* Support the stereotype: Iconic combinations should be natural choices in the game. Githyanki Gish, Orc Barbarian, Three-Keen Ranger.

* Allow to play against stereotype. Sure, dwarves should be good Fighters and elves good rangers, but they shouldn't be shoe-horned into one class. Sure, only a few people want to play a Dwarven Wizard, but it should be viable.

 

[Incenjucar]

I voted Moderate because, as usual, the polls are missing obvious options.

I want the options of race being barely noticeable and the core of the character, from 5% to 33% of the character, and for none of the 5% base to have cultural baggage. If some race has a genetic ability to use a weapon they better be a thri-kreen.

 

[trancejeremy]

IMO, this is exactly what elves and dwarves SHOULDN'T be, which is why I don't allow them as PCs.

So mechanics are the only things that matter in your book? Not how someone role-plays a character? Not what sort of background they come up with?

Only that they get modifiers to their stats and some mechanical abilty like a plus with a weapon or nightvision?

I think people should be able to play what they want - there just shouldn't be mechanical differences for it...they should play a race because they want to play a race, not because they get the right bonus for their class.

 

[BASHMAN]

In my experience, fluff was written to be ignored. How often have I made a character based on the fluff of the setting. Almost never. How often have I come in with a character concept I wanted and then bent the setting to fit it? Far more often.

Even in settings that I LIKED (Mystara being the only D&D setting that I ever could bother to read more than a few pages of) I never played things "straight" by the fluff of the game. Every character I made had to stand out or be different somehow.

My Darokin noble? Was a Polish winged hussar. My Thyatian Legionaire? Was a Hobgoblin. My halfling? Used a tomahawk and lived among the peoples of the Atrughan clans.

The point is, I'd much prefer there be some crunch that differentiates the races (or even nations), because if it's just fluff, why bother to even have other races?

That said, I think that the mechanics on race should not repeat the mistake of 4e where there was clearly wrong race / class combos that could incite other players to say "you're not playing right" or "that's stupid" or "you're handicapping your character on purpose; it doesn't 'prove' you are a better role-player, so stop it". In 3.x, playing against type was not as detrimental as it was in 4e.

In 2e and earlier, playing against type pretty much was not allowed. That was one of the great "innovations" that 3.x made.

 

[Minigiant]

One thing I constantly hear is that people "don't want races to too important because that don't want races to control what class the PC could choose."

Can't races have major mechanical strength without punishing PCs for playing certian classes.

A race's mechanical power/focus should move away from Ability boose and to aspects of D&D that all PCs can use.

In 4e, dragonborn and eladrins were loved/hated not because of their ability boosts but for the breath weapon and teleport respectively. Any PC could appreciate a breath weapon to clear minions or target Reflex. Fighters, rogues,wizards, and clerics could all use a free teleport every 5 minutes.

Move away from +X-Y and to Bonus speed, Extra movement modes, Bonus HP, Bonus AC, Rerolls, Saving throw bonuses, Free spells, Sneak attack progression, attack roll bonuses. Things all classes can appreciate without pigeonholing races into certain class.

 

[Olgar Shiverstone]

Am I the only one who read the title as "Monte Cook on Racial Impotence"? I though we would be discussing viagra as a racial power.

I do like the idea of race-specific feats to be able to improve the ability to "play to type".

 

[dangerous jack]

Interesting comments all round. I find myself agreeing with pretty much everyone.

On the one hand, I want to be able to come up with an idea for a dwarven wizard and not have this be such an inferior choice that the rest of the players grumble about my character's ineffectiveness. So I don't want race to impact mechanics, right?

On the other hand, I don't want dwarves to be short, stocky humans. If that's the case, I could just play a short, stocky human. And I don't like the dwarf rogue that is more dextrous than the elf fighter. So obviously I want race to impact mechanics, right?

I'd like to see something like: race would have a huge impact on ability scores... Elves get +4 to dex and -4 to con, dwarves get +4 to con and -4 to dex. And they'd each have some special abilities. But my combat effectiveness would be tied to my class level (i.e. my level 5 dwarf wizard vs your level 5 eladrin wizard is a toss up). No idea how this would work, and maybe it wouldn't. Just spitballing ideas.

 

[grimslade]

I voted very

I would like to see strong mechanicals to support the fluff.
Stat bonuses are the least imaginative and least demonstrative way to mechanically differentiate race. I like strong genetic differences. Dwarves are sturdy and can resist being pushed pulled and shifted. Elves should be able to disappear in the forest. Gnomes should be able to spontaneously combust causing damage like the 3E harm spell to themselves.
There should be themes that allow races to really differentiate their class. Dwarven fighters should have cultural differences built in by theme. Elven Ancestor Necromancers (ty Eberron) should be very different from Gnomish Illusionists.

 

[hanez]

All this talk about options and modules really confuses me. D&D has a brand, in D&D elves and dwarves need to mean something. A D&D where one person plays an elf that has strong effect on the mechanics, and the other person playing has no effect doesn't make any sense. On the other hand this could be solved with Racial Levels. O levels elves, have a couple bonuses, want to be more "elfy"? throw a couple levels into elf at the expense of a couple class levels and you have all sorts of elf levels. This kind of idea could be in a module, ala unearthed arcana.

Talk about race having NO effect on mechanics is just as silly as saying a class should have NO effect on mechanics. This reminds me of the designers saying you could refluff 4e spells into necromancy powers by pretending theres skulls in the flavor. That is not the breadth and depth of interesting abilities I am used to in D&D.

I voted very, but would be happy with moderate, or even more. On the other hand if 5e is yet again a numbers only based framework, and my players are expected to provide their own fluff for races, classes, and abilities I suspect we won't be buyin in.

1 Race and 1 class that you can refluff a million ways, does not interest me, I look for that perfect mix of fluff and mechanics, the fluff makes you think "I wanna be that!!", and the mechanics supports your imagination, instead of breaking or challenging it.