Monte Cook - Racial Importance

[Blackwarder]

I too am tired of this wishy washy halfway important races.

Please Don't make The Racial Ability Score Adjustment the Most important part of a race.

It's the biggest problem. Instead make the other parts of the race more important.

I'd like to see something like this:

Halfing

• +1Dexterity -1Strength
• 30ft speed
• Small character. Halfling get +1 AC, +1 to attack rolls, +4 to Dexterity and Intelligence checks to hide but use smaller weapons.
• +2 to Strength check to climb and jump acrobatically
• +2 to Dexterity check to be hide, move silently, palm small objects, and pick pockets without notice
• +2 to Intelligence checks to disable devices
• +2 to Charisma checks to resist fear
• Halflings can perform sneak attacks with thrown weapons, slings, and rays equal to a rogue of its level.

you for forgot the fact that they don't need shoes and eat 5-6 times a day.

What I would love to have is a race book for the more complex module where the DM could mix and match and change the races to his and his group liking.

I want the basic set to have a fairly basic and easy to use race features, the moderate set to give the race features more weight and the full on module to let the DM and the group play with the race features as they like.

There is a valid point about what parts of race are actually culture and what noe and we don't know how exactly themes are tied to this, what if in my campaign the elves are the greatest sea faring race in the world and i'm playing a Nobel Sailor elf fighter, how much of this is theme and how much is race? can I get two themes?

Warder

 

[thewok]

(And then make light blades use dexterity for their to-hit bonus, and heavy blades use strength, so you can still have an effective halfling fighter if you want.)

Most weapons should use Dex to determine to-hit and Str to determine damage. D&D's not built for that level of granularity, though.

I went with Moderate on the poll. I think race should be an important part of a character concept. But, it shouldn't be so important that it removes class choices from a character. I'm fine with the CharOp people declaring a tiefling unfit for the invoker class, but I happen to really enjoy my tiefling invoker, thank you very much. If she had a -4 to Wisdom, I never would have considered that race-class combination.

 

[Sunseeker]

I like the strong differentiation +4 / -4 to a stat gives, but is that going to leave the halfling rogue who dumps STR with a score of 4? Instead, what about racial minimums and maximums? The designers are already talking about "mortal limits" to ability scores. What if a halfling has a maximum 15 strength, but a minimum 13 dexterity?

(And then make light blades use dexterity for their to-hit bonus, and heavy blades use strength, so you can still have an effective halfling fighter if you want.)

I feel like if they're going to give us racial "minimums" and "maximums" they might as well just not let us even roll our scores anymore.

"Well your gnome's dexterity can only be between a 13 and a 17."
"well, we've decided that "mere mortals" can't have more than a 17 in any one stat." or "That it's unrealistic that someone can have more than 3 15's in their stats."

It just starts feeling too much like an MMO where every character, aside from minor visual differences, is essentially the same.

 

[Grazzt]

I feel like if they're going to give us racial "minimums" and "maximums" they might as well just not let us even roll our scores anymore.

"Well your gnome's dexterity can only be between a 13 and a 17."
"well, we've decided that "mere mortals" can't have more than a 17 in any one stat." or "That it's unrealistic that someone can have more than 3 15's in their stats."

It just starts feeling too much like an MMO where every character, aside from minor visual differences, is essentially the same.

Broaden the range of min and max on scores. 13-17 is too narrow probably. Lots of 1e races had min/max scores, but few were 13+ for min (half-orcs Con was one I think; maybe only one...in 1e PHB; I'm not counting the sub-races from UA as I don't remember their min/max scores as we didnt use those guys)

 

[ForeverSlayer]

I don't want race and class to have anything to do with each other. I know certain races were better when used with certain classes but I want that to stop.

 

[Truename]

Here's another idea. What if we took the "class choice is more important than racial choice which is more important that ability scores" claim literally? Stealing a page from Gamma World 4e:

• Your class gives you an automatic 17 in an ability score.
• Your race gives you an automatic 15 in one of two ability scores (must be different than class score).
• The rest of the ability scores are rolled randomly.

So a dwarf (con or wis) fighter (str) gets 17 STR, 15 CON, and rolls the rest.

This would actually make random ability scores viable.

 

[Blackwarder]

Here's another idea. What if we took the "class choice is more important than racial choice which is more important that ability scores" claim literally? Stealing a page from Gamma World 4e:

• Your class gives you an automatic 17 in an ability score.
• Your race gives you an automatic 15 in one of two ability scores (must be different than class score).
• The rest of the ability scores are rolled randomly.

So a dwarf (con or wis) fighter (str) gets 17 STR, 15 CON, and rolls the rest.

This would actually make random ability scores viable.

I don't like that at all, that will make all the class/race combination the same, why should all fighters have str 17? Or all the wizards have int 17? etc

Warder

 

[Stormonu]

I'm hoping 5E goes with a skill/talent tree for class abilities. I think this would then allow the same thing to be done with race, allowing race to be as mechanically important or not as players and DM's desire.

I'd like to see races bring a small amount of customization to the game. Perhaps starting off with a +1/-1 to an ability set, a racial language and one of several "racial" abilities, such as choosing between the elf/eladrin teleport, enhanced perception or bonus with bows.

If you want to go beyond that, then you have the option to pick up racial traits to have a stronger mechanical influence on your character. Or you can ignore the mechanics and wing it with fluff. Want the elvin resistance to sleep? Then choose it as a talent. Want your elf to walk so lightly he doesn't leave a footprint? Take it as a talent. Don't bake the options into race and front-load them at the start of the game.

 

[JohnSnow]

I think that race should be significant, but I'd very much like to see WotC take a step back to each race's fantasy fiction roots, and see what can be gleaned about said race that makes it "special." And they should try to separate out the cultural baggage of a particular work of fiction as much as possible to get at what is truly the iconic "core" of the race. I'll take a stab at 3 of them...

Elves:
In every work of fiction, elves are possessed of unearthly grace and dexterity. Whether it's their skill with bows or their preternatural acrobatic skill, elves are epitomized by grace. It's their hallmark statistic. Woodsy-ness and skill with magic are also part and parcel of just about every version of elves out there. Elven senses are also legendary. Mechanically?

- Dex Bonus
- Low-light vision
- Increased base speed
- Bonus to perception, nature and survival checks
- Some "light step" ability

Dwarves:
Just as elves are graceful, dwarves are tough. So constitution goes with dwarves like dexterity goes with elves. Dwarves are also, always, associated with undergound areas, mining and metalwork. Sometimes they're magical, sometimes not. They're a warrior culture. Those things are just always true of dwarves. You can call it a stereotype, but there it is. Dwarves also have short legs, but they're sturdy. So, what should set them apart mechanically?
- a Con Bonus
- low-light vision
- reduced base speed
- dwarves make light of burdens (the "no armor speed penalty," for example)
- stonecunning
- Something to represent dwarven durability

Halflings
There's really only one source of halflings, other than D&D itself. So, in order to get more options, we have to consider Tolkien's "Hobbits," Dennis McKiernan's "Warrows," Weiss & Hickman's "Kender" and the long history of the D&D halfling. Let's see. Lucky seems to fit. So does "sturdy" - Tolkien's hobbits endure wounds and carry cursed items that would have destroyed those of other races. All versions of the little folk seem good at hiding and using ranged weapons. A dex bonus might be in order, but that pushes the halfling into elven territory. Certainly, there should be a strength penalty for being small. Mechanically? I'm out of ideas.

 

[Li Shenron]

I think I've probably wrote the same stuff in other threads, but still...

Personally I like the choice of Race to be significant and important, but I also would like the option of "pick race and forget" for those who are more interested in developing their PC through the class. I still think that class however should be the most important choice in the game.

So a basis I would start from, if I were a game developer, would be to reckon that Race = innate abilities + culture. From this (simplistic) starting point, you can work on something like this:

- Racial innate abilities are "mandatory" i.e. granted at 1st level to all characters of that race. They can be physical or mental things like ability score bonuses/penalties, vision, base speed, ST bonuses.

- Racial cultural abilities are "optional" i.e. you can choose them if you want, or ignore (and presumably get something else in compensation). These could mechanically be something as easy as race-restricted feats, representing stuff that are learned rather than born with, e.g. elven expertise with bows, dwarven affinities to metal/stone and the underground, gnomes' illusion tricks. Some of these may be selected also at 1st level, but perhaps others (or boosts & improvements to existing ones) will require a few levels more.

A DM can then apply her own perks to the system, if it fits better to the campaign setting, for example making some racial feats available to characters of another race who lived all their lives in a community of said race.