Flexor the Mighty!
18/100 Strength!
I like the classic D&D wizard and would not want to change it. It makes for interesting play.
Monte Cook's Design Thoughts On Spellcasters
- Thread starter Odhanan
- Start date
Chaldfont
First Post
I love the idea that a character can only have so many spell effects on them at a time. This was the biggest pain for my higher level games--keeping track of all the bonuses and effects.
But I would not put a hard number on it. I would make some kind of spellcasting check with a cumulative penalty for each additional effect. If you failed, your spell fails. If you fail really badly, all spell effects fail, maybe with some kind of catastrophic effect.
This mechanic would allow you to have other, metamagicky things like Feats that made that check easier.
You could say that magic distrupts that natural order. Too much magical energy in one spot is dangerous and spellcasters have to be very careful when layering on more effects.
But I would not put a hard number on it. I would make some kind of spellcasting check with a cumulative penalty for each additional effect. If you failed, your spell fails. If you fail really badly, all spell effects fail, maybe with some kind of catastrophic effect.
This mechanic would allow you to have other, metamagicky things like Feats that made that check easier.
You could say that magic distrupts that natural order. Too much magical energy in one spot is dangerous and spellcasters have to be very careful when layering on more effects.
Loincloth of Armour
First Post
A system of nearly-constant magic effects is not bad, provided they are generally the sub-optimal choice.
You don't want a mage to have a 1d6+primary modifer per round, because at 1st level that's better than magic missile. Sure it's a ranged touch attack, but when you don't worry about it running out there's no reason to hold back. Zap, zap, zap.
Something more along the lines of 1d4 points of ranged touch damage, going up every 4 levels to a max of 5d4 at 20th would be better. That way it's always better to cast a spell, but if you don't want to cast a spell, hey, you've at least got something to contribute to the fight.
Also, assume for the moment that they're going to keep the wizard/sorcerer dicotomy. A way to balance the system could be:
Class...............Spells...............Magical Abilities
-----------------------------------------------
Wizard..............More...................Fewer
Sorcerer...........Fewer..................More
Thus wizards can use more spells, but less other abilities they can use on the fly. Sorcerers on the other hand would look more like warlocks, with a few key spells they know (the big guns), and a slew of constantly useable, small abilities.
You don't want a mage to have a 1d6+primary modifer per round, because at 1st level that's better than magic missile. Sure it's a ranged touch attack, but when you don't worry about it running out there's no reason to hold back. Zap, zap, zap.
Something more along the lines of 1d4 points of ranged touch damage, going up every 4 levels to a max of 5d4 at 20th would be better. That way it's always better to cast a spell, but if you don't want to cast a spell, hey, you've at least got something to contribute to the fight.
Also, assume for the moment that they're going to keep the wizard/sorcerer dicotomy. A way to balance the system could be:
Class...............Spells...............Magical Abilities
-----------------------------------------------
Wizard..............More...................Fewer
Sorcerer...........Fewer..................More
Thus wizards can use more spells, but less other abilities they can use on the fly. Sorcerers on the other hand would look more like warlocks, with a few key spells they know (the big guns), and a slew of constantly useable, small abilities.
Monte's on the same thought track I was a while ago. I don't like parties to declare "we rest" after one encounter. It spoils the mood, especially in the middle of an urgent mission.
In the same vein, the wizard is effectively the only character who can't attack every round using his ability (magic). The archer, or fighter, or rogue can take a swing every round. the wizard gets 3-5 magic missiles (if they memorized them), and then that's it for the encounter and for the day. Its descriptively goofy compared to books or movies where the casters are loosing bolts back and forth with abandon.
From a cause damage-only viewpoint, the caster should be able to use magic to zap a single target as often as any other PC. If the attack is ranged, it should do less damage, as we assume it consumes no ammo (unlike an archer, who has to pay for those arrows).
If I were taking a stab at designing this, I'd just make a pile of Feats that do damage to enemies (Iron Heroes has a few damage abilities for their arcanist class, similar concept). The Feat prerequisites will take care of controlling who can take what and when.
I'd have all the wierd effects be spells. Stone to Mud, teleport etc. I think the spells would have >1 round casting times, to simulate more ritual magic going.
I might make a few feats that make the spells into immediate effects (like a feat, that requires you to have the teleport spell, but lets you then teleport instantly, once per so many rounds).
Hmm, all sorts of different options open up...
In the same vein, the wizard is effectively the only character who can't attack every round using his ability (magic). The archer, or fighter, or rogue can take a swing every round. the wizard gets 3-5 magic missiles (if they memorized them), and then that's it for the encounter and for the day. Its descriptively goofy compared to books or movies where the casters are loosing bolts back and forth with abandon.
From a cause damage-only viewpoint, the caster should be able to use magic to zap a single target as often as any other PC. If the attack is ranged, it should do less damage, as we assume it consumes no ammo (unlike an archer, who has to pay for those arrows).
If I were taking a stab at designing this, I'd just make a pile of Feats that do damage to enemies (Iron Heroes has a few damage abilities for their arcanist class, similar concept). The Feat prerequisites will take care of controlling who can take what and when.
I'd have all the wierd effects be spells. Stone to Mud, teleport etc. I think the spells would have >1 round casting times, to simulate more ritual magic going.
I might make a few feats that make the spells into immediate effects (like a feat, that requires you to have the teleport spell, but lets you then teleport instantly, once per so many rounds).
Hmm, all sorts of different options open up...
pawsplay
Hero
By "books" do you mean The Avengers? In the D&D related books, casters were spare with their spells. Gandalf was very spare indeed with his spells. The Grey Mouser sometimes did not cast anything at all. Elric conserved his resources very carefully. In Conan stories, the casting of a spell was often a central event. And in The Dying Earth, people threatened to cast the Excellent Prismtic Spray more often than they actually cast it.
Flexor the Mighty!
18/100 Strength!
pawsplay said:
The World of Warcraft strategy guide?
I kid, I kid!
Someone
Adventurer
Looking at it with some perspective, I think we already have Monte´s suggestion working. Somehow. A Druid is a cleric with less spells and a few supernatural gimmicks -wild shape, thousand faces, etc- The analogy works better with the PHB II´s Shapeshift variant.
I think an option lke that would make high level casters more playable. If we had casters with a bunch of always on magical abilties and a reduced number of relatively potent spells, the process of making those huge "spell prepared" lists would be much more easier. Suppose a wizard´s spells per day wouldn´t increase past, say, level 6. He´d have 6-8 prepared spells, and a number of magical abilities that would cover those virtually always on defensive and offensive spells; a high level sorcerer, for example, has so many slots that the number of Magic Missile and Mage Armor spells he can cast is, for almost all practical pruposes, unlimited.
6-8 spells don´t seem to be so many, but the number is in line with the number of slots a wizard has in his 2 or 3 higher level spells. In my experience it´s when those slots are expended when the wizard starts thinking he´s "empty"; once he´s cast his Mazes, Empowerd Disintegrates, etc, his offensive options dwindle greatly in power. Also, a reduced number of slots would surely mean keeping buff spells under control. The number of temporal modifiers is a big factor in the complexity of high level play.
Pairing those powerful spells with useful, comparatively magical effects we´d get a caster more customizable, about as powerful and is now, and not much more difficult to play at later levels as he´s at low-medium levels.
The only problem is that he´d only prepare his higher level spells, relegating those he adquired at lower levels to oblivion. But what if those spells augmented freely, like this example?:
Fireball
Evocation [Fire]
Minimum Level: Sor/Wiz 3
Components: V, S, M
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Long (400 ft. + 40 ft./level)
Area: 20-ft.-radius spread
Duration: Instantaneous
Saving Throw: Reflex half
Spell Resistance: Yes
A fireball spell is an explosion of flame that detonates with a low roar and deals 1d6 points of fire damage per caster level to every creature within the area. Unattended objects also take this damage. The explosion creates almost no pressure.
You point your finger and [snip].
The fireball sets fire to combustibles and damages objects in the area. [snip]
At level 11 you fire an additional fireball. at level 17 you fire two additional fireballs
At level 14 the proyectiles fired grow to be 1 foot in diamater; you can make a ranged touch attack with them to deal 2d6 blugeoning damage. Creatures struck by the pea suffer a -4 penalty to their Reflex saving throw against the spell´s fire damage.
Material Component
A tiny ball of bat guano and sulfur.
I think an option lke that would make high level casters more playable. If we had casters with a bunch of always on magical abilties and a reduced number of relatively potent spells, the process of making those huge "spell prepared" lists would be much more easier. Suppose a wizard´s spells per day wouldn´t increase past, say, level 6. He´d have 6-8 prepared spells, and a number of magical abilities that would cover those virtually always on defensive and offensive spells; a high level sorcerer, for example, has so many slots that the number of Magic Missile and Mage Armor spells he can cast is, for almost all practical pruposes, unlimited.
6-8 spells don´t seem to be so many, but the number is in line with the number of slots a wizard has in his 2 or 3 higher level spells. In my experience it´s when those slots are expended when the wizard starts thinking he´s "empty"; once he´s cast his Mazes, Empowerd Disintegrates, etc, his offensive options dwindle greatly in power. Also, a reduced number of slots would surely mean keeping buff spells under control. The number of temporal modifiers is a big factor in the complexity of high level play.
Pairing those powerful spells with useful, comparatively magical effects we´d get a caster more customizable, about as powerful and is now, and not much more difficult to play at later levels as he´s at low-medium levels.
The only problem is that he´d only prepare his higher level spells, relegating those he adquired at lower levels to oblivion. But what if those spells augmented freely, like this example?:
Fireball
Evocation [Fire]
Minimum Level: Sor/Wiz 3
Components: V, S, M
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Long (400 ft. + 40 ft./level)
Area: 20-ft.-radius spread
Duration: Instantaneous
Saving Throw: Reflex half
Spell Resistance: Yes
A fireball spell is an explosion of flame that detonates with a low roar and deals 1d6 points of fire damage per caster level to every creature within the area. Unattended objects also take this damage. The explosion creates almost no pressure.
You point your finger and [snip].
The fireball sets fire to combustibles and damages objects in the area. [snip]
At level 11 you fire an additional fireball. at level 17 you fire two additional fireballs
At level 14 the proyectiles fired grow to be 1 foot in diamater; you can make a ranged touch attack with them to deal 2d6 blugeoning damage. Creatures struck by the pea suffer a -4 penalty to their Reflex saving throw against the spell´s fire damage.
Material Component
A tiny ball of bat guano and sulfur.
