D&D 5E Moon Circle Druid Play Report

[Samurai]

Got to be careful with changes to HP.

On the one hand, yes the druid is getting a LOT of hp when he changes. On the other, their AC is very low. The brown bear has an AC 11. Compare that to a barb who will likely have AC 16-17. The HP is the sole way a druid can stay in the front line, so you have to be cautious with how much you change it.

On the other hand, if you use Wildshape for recon and spying, changing into a hummingbird or owl or something is normally very dangerous because your HP are so low. Keeping your own HP no matter the form would make you a very tough owl!

 

[bleezy]

I'm running a game with two PCs, a Mage (enchanter) and a Moon Circle Druid. At 2nd level a Hill Giant attacked the small settlement they were staying in. I expected the party to shoot a few spells at it before running away, but to my surprise when the giant had been injured to about 70 remaining HP (the PCs of course did not know the exact health) after fighting the town's militia, the Druid morphed into a bear and tackled the giant. I even stepped in and told the player that was probably a bad idea. But with a surprise round and a tiny bit of spell support from the wizard the Moon Druid managed to slay the CR 5 monster. The giant doled out over 80 points of damage to the druid, but it wasn't enough to kill him.

This didn't bother me as a DM; I actually thought it was pretty bad ass. I haven't studied every option in the PHB in detail, but I couldn't imagine any other second level character being nearly this powerful. After the fight, the party easily gained enough XP to level up, so the Druid has become a bit less of a one-man adventuring party.

Because our game is set in 10th century Norway and the British Isles, we agreed that the Druid, in his pre-adventuring life, hadn't encountered any creatures not native to northern Europe. At level 4 the party just fought against some giant spiders, so now the Druid has another useful form.

The Druid seems ridiculously overpowered at level 2, overpowered at level 3, and about right at level 4. If I were to make a change, I would probably prevent the Druid from taking CR 1 forms until level 3 (fits with level/3 rule) and let them take CR 1/2 forms as soon as they commit to the Moon Circle.

 

[Authweight]

it's like you didn't even read the posts directly above yours...

I think the few before mine were posted while I was composing mine, so this is true

But I think my point still stands. Yes, if you have to change back to human form regularly, then the ability loses a lot of its power. But the game clearly assumes that the typical sort of dungeon crawl is at least part of the game. And you can get both of your uses back on a short rest.

I have trouble imagining it being a common occurrence that you are required to go back to human form but you do not have an hour to sit back and get your stuff back. If you don't have that hour, then you would be justified in and out of character to just stay in wild form. To keep putting the party in situations that force the Druid to revert without also getting an hour rest seems to me like it would require a great deal of DM railroading.

In regards to the idea that you can balance around the fact the Druid has to have seen an animal, isn't it fair to assume a Druid has encountered a brown bear at least once in his life? To say otherwise seems strange and forced.

 

[Stalker0]

I did a little math analysis to see how the moon druid fared against the barb, as they are both primal fighters using limited resources for raw awesome. You can find that there: http://www.enworld.org/forum/showth...2nd-level-A-Little-Math&p=6405787#post6405787


The quick conclusion: I can see the concern. The key is the Moon Druid is roughly comparable to the Barb with just 1 use of wildshape. With 2 in a fight, they are significantly better...and we haven't even touched spells. And of course, that is just in raw power, that doesn't touch the wondrous flexibility that various forms offer.

 

[Authweight]

A change I'm considering is allowing the moon Druid to take the form of a more powerful monster on one of its wild shape uses each day. So this:

"Powerful Transformation:

When you use your wild shape ability, you can take on the form of a challenge 1 creature. After using this ability, you cannot turn into a challenge 1 creature again until you complete a long rest."

Then at level 6 let them do a cr 2 creature once per day, and then let them do it more times per day as they level up.

 

[pming]

Hiya.

I did a little math analysis to see how the moon druid fared against the barb, as they are both primal fighters using limited resources for raw awesome. You can find that there: http://www.enworld.org/forum/showth...2nd-level-A-Little-Math&p=6405787#post6405787
The quick conclusion: I can see the concern. The key is the Moon Druid is roughly comparable to the Barb with just 1 use of wildshape. With 2 in a fight, they are significantly better...and we haven't even touched spells. And of course, that is just in raw power, that doesn't touch the wondrous flexibility that various forms offer.

Sure, numbers are numbers. But as Sacrosanct said at least twice above, and I think someone else as well...the "combat" is only 1/3 of the picture. That picture is also in a perfectly flat, predictable environment. Alas, 2/3 of D&D isn't about numbers and finding a perfectly flat, predictable environment in a fantasy campaign should be pretty uncommon.

How do the druids numbers stack up when he DOESN'T have any wildshape and the Barbarian doesn't have any rage left? You should do that as well, because the druid's wildshape will not always be viable, not always be available, and not always be sustainable. There are many detriments to changing into the form of, say, a brown bear. The key benefit is size/weight, senses, and hp/dmg. As a bear you can't climb a rope, use a wooden ladder, or, you know, speak. Anything with brute-force would be awesome though!

Also, campaign world stuff can get in the way of this "numbers game". Not getting to be able to actually take a short rest for one. Other stuff goes on in the campaign that may very well (and likely, IME) force the druid to change back to his original shape (human, elf, etc). As I said, perfect flat, predictable environment...wildshape may be a bit overpowered...but in the layered, chaotic surroundings that is a normal campaign? I'm not seeing it.

As a note, I have one player in my current Greyhawk campaign that is a Moon Druid. I already told him during character creation that the wildshape/HP thing may get a change if we find it too over powered. But so far (they just got to level 3 iirc), he's not OP at all. He (the player) always tries to have an exit strategy for every character he plays for when things go horribly, horribly wrong...so having one wildshape is his "ace in the hole" for when the TPK spotlight starts to shine down on them. That said, he is also smart enough to realize that the party is tougher than his is alone...so using a shape to get some kind of advantage over his opponents (scouting a dungeon, flying over an encampment, luring some opponents away or into an ambush, etc) is a MUCH better option than simply turning into a bear and charging in. The most powerful aspect of the druids wildshape has always been (again, IME), it's utility and ability to be "ignored" (turning into a rat and hanging out in the castle to gather information....rats get pretty much ignored). That versitality is easily the most powerful thing going for a druid with regards to wildshape...not "the numbers".

^_^

Paul L. Ming

 

[rjfTrebor]

I was playing a Moon Druid in HotDQ, in a party of 2. What I found is that being the only front-liner (the other guy is a ranger), I desperately needed that bonus HP. At the church I wildshaped into a giant hyena (45hp) to hold off the people who broke into the chapel, but my form dropped in 3 turns. Sure I felt really overpowered compared to the other guy, but I think that past 6th level (which we'll hit earlier than the book suggests as we've almost hit 3rd level and we're only halfway through Greenest) it'll balance out.

Also, as a DM you should be able to build (if creating the camlaign) or tweak (if running an adventure) your encounters to reflect the power of the Moon druid in your party. Treat them as if they're 1-2 levels higher than they actually are for determining encounter difficulty and see how that goes, or even make easy encounters medium, medium encounters hard, and hard encounters deadly. Just a thought

That'll just make the non-druid characters die more often. you shouldn't have to tweak the whole game dynamic because of one ability.

 

[Sacrosanct]

haha Paul, it's funny you mention speaking, because that came up no less than a dozen times yesterday, where not being able to speak became a problem. Surprised at just how often that comes up.. That, and opposable thumbs...

also, I certainly don't think I was railroading players because the druid had to change back early to cross a rope bridge, or so he could cast spells to help the rest of the party. Those were all party choices.

in my very humble opinion, theorycrafting shouldn't be anything other than a fun exercise, and not to be taken too seriously since actual play is so much different than a white room

 

[SilverfireSage]

I'm running a game with two PCs, a Mage (enchanter) and a Moon Circle Druid. At 2nd level a Hill Giant attacked the small settlement they were staying in. I expected the party to shoot a few spells at it before running away, but to my surprise when the giant had been injured to about 70 remaining HP (the PCs of course did not know the exact health) after fighting the town's militia, the Druid morphed into a bear and tackled the giant. I even stepped in and told the player that was probably a bad idea. But with a surprise round and a tiny bit of spell support from the wizard the Moon Druid managed to slay the CR 5 monster. The giant doled out over 80 points of damage to the druid, but it wasn't enough to kill him.

Yeah, I think you're doing something wrong there. For starters, a Druid at 2nd level would have around 17 hit points (8+5+4 for a 14 CON). He turns into a Brown Bear with 34 HP. A brown bear has an 11 AC, so the Hill Giant will hit it on a 3+. This is an 85% to hit, and the Druid itself likely has only around a 13 or 14 armor class, so after transforming the Hill Giant will hit 75% of the time. So the druid changes, the Hill giant deals an average of 30 damage. This will bring the Druid down to 4 hit points in his bear form. On the next round, the druid will die, because the Hill giant will deal another 28 damage on average. The first 4 will be to the bear form, and the last 24 will be to the druid himself, killing him instantly. Either you're underestimating the amount of help the wizard did, not taking into account that a Hill Giant with 70 hp would have far less experience, or something with the math was wrong at some point.

 

[Stalker0]

Sure, numbers are numbers. But as Sacrosanct said at least twice above, and I think someone else as well...the "combat" is only 1/3 of the picture.

I agree, but honestly I think that just makes the Druid MORE powerful, not less.

Wildshape lets you:

1) Have more strength than most 2nd less characters
2) Climb any surface without fail
3) Have blindsight
4) Gain a 60 foot speed.

And I'm sure there is more. What we are highlighting is not only does wildshape provide you wonderful versatility, it also provides the equivalent combat power of other classes...and more frequently recharges than some of those classes.