D&D (2024) Moon druid with weapons mastery?

[mellored]

Not what I am saying at all. Specific animals don't get anything.

They do with the 2014 wildshape.
And they should with the 2024 wildshape.

Otherwise, your not really turning into an animal. A horse, bear, giant toad, and crocodile should not all have equal speed, shove, and grapple stats.

Now people want a Druid to be a full caster, wildshape, AND be better at weapon mastery than the fighter?

No one said that.
Why would you think that?

Swapping wild shape forms to get different effects. In fact ALL the effects with no weapon limitations.

Druid can wild shape twice per day at level 1. 4 times at higher level.
And it takes 2 bonus actions.

Fighters can swap each attack.

Wildshape forms attack more often, remember?

Fighter get action surge, remember?

A level 2 fighter can prone and push in a single turn. That's something a moon druid will never be able to do.

Come on. You're not stealing the Fighter's schtick for a Druid subclass any more than a fighter is stealing the Druid's schtick for a Fighter subclass.

Fighter stealing the druid schtick is called a Ranger.

 

[Mistwell]

Druid can wild shape twice per day at level 1. 4 times at higher level.
And it takes 2 bonus actions.

It progresses to 4 by 9th level and "You regain one expended use when you finish a Short Rest". So it's going to be a bunch. And it's one bonus action to assume the form.

Fighters can swap each attack.

Not sure what you're referring to. They swap on a long rest. At 13th level (and you called 9th level high earlier) they can choose which of two they already put on a weapon to use.

Fighter get action surge, remember?

What does that have to do with what we're discussing?

A level 2 fighter can prone and push in a single turn. That's something a moon druid will never be able to do.

With what you're suggesting, why wouldn't they be able to? Their form gets multiple attacks, and you're asking for them to get weapon mastery with those attacks, so why couldn't they shove with an attack and follow it with a push attack?

Fighter stealing the druid schtick is called a Ranger.

Oh can a Ranger now full caster and wildshape?

Druid is not going to swipe the Fighters flexibility with Weapon Masteries.

 

[mellored]

Their form gets multiple attacks, and you're asking for them to get weapon mastery with those attacks, so why couldn't they shove with an attack and follow it with a push attack?

Because you turn into a ram OR wolf. Not both.

Fighters can swap weapons each attack, use polearm master for an extra attack, then use action surge for even more attacks.

A level 5 moon druid could push, push
A Eldritch knight 5 fighter could prone, push, push, prone, cleave.

Eldritch knight gets 1/3 spell slots
Moon druid gets 1/3 masteries (effectively).

I am not suggesting anything overpowered.

And if it somehow is, it could be limited to once per turn or some such.

 

[Snarf Zagyg]

Because you turn into a ram OR wolf. Not both.

Fighters can swap weapons each attack, use polearm master for an extra attack, then use action surge for even more attacks.

A level 5 moon druid could push, push
A Eldritch knight 5 fighter could prone, push, push, prone, cleave.

Eldritch knight gets 1/3 spell slots
Moon druid gets 1/3 masteries (effectively).

I am not suggesting anything overpowered.

And if it somehow is, it could be limited to once per turn or some such.

Right. But I think you're missing the fundamental problem. The actual crux of the disagreement.

Weapon Mastery is a new feature being added specifically to differentiate the martial classes. They are trying out this feature so that the warrior classes (Fighter, Barbarian, and Monk ... although the Monk utilization will be revealed whenever they get around to that).

What does the mean? It means that other classes do not get it.

Rangers? Nope. Paladins? Nope. Rogues? Nope. And spellcasters, including Moon druids and valor bards and war clerics? Nope.

This is not a bug- it's a feature. Everyone who loves one of their classes can imagine why they want this feature! If you're a Rogue fan, you are imagining your rogue all awesome with a dagger, or whatever rogues are using now. Paladin fans can't imagine Sir Smites-A-Lot without being the bestest sword-y guy ever. Strider McAragon is dreaming of his scimitars, or whatever.

And, of course, every gish or spellcaster wants it, because of course they do. Heck, you think that the Moon Druid wants this ... what about a HEXBLADE???

But that's the point- this is a feature for these classes. Just for them. It's not like people have all been, "You know who has been too powerful for too long in D&D? The martials! The three classes known for not casting spells." So if you want to take advantage of this, then you have to do it the old fashioned way- multiclass or look for a feat (because of course there will be one).

As for the specific case of the moon druid, it's my understanding that it got nerfed a little in the last playtest. I'd concentrate on asking for specific features for the moon druid, instead of cribbing features from the warriors. You'll get a lot more support (IMO, YMMV, etc.).

 

[Mistwell]

Because you turn into a ram OR wolf. Not both.

Shove isn't a Mastery. Anyone can do it.

Fighters can swap weapons each attack,

No? You can only stow or draw still, it's just made more clear how you do that. You can't be flipping around three and four different weapons.

use polearm master for an extra attack, then use action surge for even more attacks.

Yes they can use action surge but that's not their normal series of actions. You're talking about the primary thing Moon Druids do, getting the benefit of the Fighters all the time.

A level 5 moon druid could push, push
A Eldritch knight 5 fighter could prone, push, push, prone, cleave.

Are they fighting with two weapon fighting?

Eldritch knight gets 1/3 spell slots
Moon druid gets 1/3 masteries (effectively).

Sure, grab the feat and they can do that. Moon Druid is about wildshaping, not fighter abilities. Eldritch Knight is about magic spells. You're trying to add two specialties to one subclass.

 

[Kinematics]

Rangers? Nope. Paladins? Nope. Rogues? Nope. And spellcasters, including Moon druids and valor bards and war clerics? Nope.

Bit of a correction. From the playtest document:

This section contains playtest versions of weapons in the Player’s Handbook. Here you’ll find weapon tables, several revised weapon properties, and a new type of property: Mastery properties.
When we revisit the Experts and Priests in future Unearthed Arcana articles, some of them will gain access to these special properties.

It's thus speculated that paladins, rangers, and rogues will get some limited access to weapon masteries. My guess is that they'll see a weapon progression of 1/2/3 compared to the barbarian's 2/3/4 and fighter's 3/4/5.

Though I agree that it's unlikely that any full caster will get access to weapon mastery outside of grabbing the feat.

I do still think there will need to be some mastery provided for both unarmed strikes and natural weapons, though. Obviously the monk is going to want something for unarmed strikes, and it would feel incomplete if the races with natural weapons aren't able to benefit from something similar.

So I expect it would be reasonable for a moon druid who picked up the Weapon Master feat to be able to use some sort of mastery with the natural weapons of its Wild Shape forms, though it would be limited to just one type per day. That type of interaction needs to be considered. I don't expect it to be a built-in feature, though.

 

[mellored]

No? You can only stow or draw still, it's just made more clear how you do that. You can't be flipping around three and four different weapons.

Unless I miss understand it.

You can attack and stow a weapon.
Then you can draw and attack.

2 attacks, different weapons.

Sure, grab the feat and they can do that. Moon Druid is about wildshaping, not fighter abilities. Eldritch Knight is about magic spells. You're trying to add two specialties to one subclass.

No, I am trying to keep what the moon subclass already has. Different animals have different attacks.

I.e. wolves can knock prone on a hit, with a saving throw. A function that is nearly identical to topple.

Balance can be achieved any number of ways. Die size, defenses, costing a spell slot, limiting the number of forms known

But hey. If it needs to be "not topple". Then just make it "mastery like".

Which may work better since there is no restrained yet, so snakes and frogs are sad. (Though perhaps restrained on unarmed attacks?)

 

[Mistwell]

Unless I miss understand it.

You can attack and stow a weapon.
Then you can draw and attack.

2 attacks, different weapons.

Right that's the maximum you can do I believe, if you started the fight with weapon in hand. The third attack you couldn't then stow it on that attack as you already drew it for that attack, so you can't proceed to the third attack.

The wildshape creature with three or four attacks has no such restriction.

No, I am trying to keep what the moon subclass already has. Different animals have different attacks.

Right as they should. It just shouldn't be the Weapon Mastery special attacks. Unless you have a feat for natural weapons.

 

[cbwjm]

My understanding is that you can draw/sheath a new weapon with each attack so once the fighter gets 3 attacks they can strike with 3 different weapons. I'm guessing this is to make it so you can throw knives with each attack without needing that a feat (or is it a fighting style?) that let's you do so.

 

[mellored]

Right that's the maximum you can do I believe, if you started the fight with weapon in hand. The third attack you couldn't then stow it on that attack as you already drew it for that attack, so you can't proceed to the third attack.

Fighters get more attacks, and action surge, and you can draw/stow after a Cleave, Nick, or Polearm master.

Topple with a maul and stow
Draw a pike and push
-bonus action push and stow
Action surge
Draw a greataxe
Cleave

So topple, push, push, cleave

More with dual wielder, which lets you draw/stow more.

The wildshape creature with three or four attacks has no such restriction.

It's only 2, as of the playtest. Moon druids get d6 damage bump instead of extra attacks.

Wasn't suggesting they get 4 attacks.

Right as they should. It just shouldn't be the Weapon Mastery special attacks. Unless you have a feat for natural weapons.

"Weapon mastery like" then.

Wolves can "trip" instead of "topple", if that somehow makes things better for you. Seems redundant to me, but hardly a hill I want to die on.