Mooninite's close Boston

[jeff37923]

I keep reading about how the Boston police over-reacted on this site and some other forums, so I'd like to ask a few hypothetical questions: What if these things really were bombs? What if the police hadn't reacted as they did to a possible threat?

 

[Ankh-Morpork Guard]

I keep reading about how the Boston police over-reacted on this site and some other forums, so I'd like to ask a few hypothetical questions: What if these things really were bombs? What if the police hadn't reacted as they did to a possible threat?

Honestly, it seems like the real overreaction here is on the political end of things and from whoever reported it.

The police did what they should have done in the situation that was put to them.

...hilarious nonetheless...

 

[Vigilance]

I keep reading about how the Boston police over-reacted on this site and some other forums, so I'd like to ask a few hypothetical questions: What if these things really were bombs? What if the police hadn't reacted as they did to a possible threat?

There's all sorts of nightmare scenarios people can come up with.

These devices were planted in 9 other cities. After 3 weeks one person in one city reported a device with wires coming out of it.

The device is a freaking lite brite of a comic character flipping the bird.

Technicians in Seattle didn't even report that they had found and removed all the devices because they were clearly not a threat.

Spinning "what if" scenarios and then acting as if the worst situation you can imagine is happening, when when it clearly is not, is not the job of law enforcement personnel.

Their jobs aren't easy. One part of their job is clear, level headed judgement. Is the man an officer just ordered to turn around holding a set of keys or a gun?

If the officer shoots, and the person is holding a set of keys, he doesn't just get to say "what if it had been a gun"? It wasn't a gun and his career may be over.

Since you asked "what if", let's look at some other scenarios.

What if a fire marshall sees the word "FIRE" on the side of a theater? Does he evacuate it? What if an arsonist is sending a signal?

Now what if other police see "FIRE" written on the side of dozens of buildings all over the city.

Why evacuate all of them. And of course, bring all off-duty fireman on duty at great tax payer expense.

Cause they might be needed.

I mean, what if it's arson?

That's what happened here.

It's just as dangerous for law enforcement to jump at every shadow as it is for them to ignore signs of danger.

Police aren't trained to tackle anyone "twitchy" coming out of a convenience store. Even though he COULD have just robbed it.

People in the fire department are not trained to douse every smoking chimney with water.

People in the bomb squad are not trained to detonate every unattended object with electronic components.

Im not denigrating these folks. Their jobs are hard. Heck, their jobs suck. But one of the things that makes their jobs hard is that they require sober judgement in stressful circumstances.

 

[takyris]

As a side note to what Vig said...

I'm writing a heist caper. As part of my research, I'm watching a lot of heist shows. One of them (since cancelled -- not very good) shows two guys showing up at night to rob an art store. The first thing they do is go across the street and cut a cable (and because I know nothing about tech, that's all it was to me -- some cable in a power box). The art store's alarm goes off. The police show up in force. They do their investigation, turn off the alarm, and then leave.

The crooks wait an hour, then cut the alarm again. Again, the police show up in force, do the investigation, and leave. The crooks do it again. And again. After the fourth time, the cops are barely doing anything, and it's taking them a long time to show up. When the crooks know that the police are exhausted and don't want to waste more resources responding to that alarm, THEN they go in, knowing they have plenty of time to get in and out before the police arrive.

The problem I have with the response to this bomb threat (and from the police viewpoint, it was a bomb threat, because that's how it was described over the phone) is that it's 1) out of proportion to the threat, and 2) not a response that can be repeated as often as needed. "Out of proportion to the threat" tells anyone reading the newspapers, "Hey, if I want to cause a panic, this is all I have to do. I don't have to make things really look like bombs. I don't have to put a lot of effort into it. This is all it takes to shut down a city." "Not repeatable" is horrifically bad, because if I were an evildoer, the first thing I'd do is start slapping down suspicious packages everywhere, watching as this overreaction continued to embarrass the mayor and strain the city's resources. When the inevitable "adjustment to departmental policies" came down and severely curtailed the powers of departmental policy on a suspected bomb threat, that's when I'd break out the actual bombs.

Terrorists of any origin are, in essence, bullies. They prey on fear and perceived weakness. This was the municipal equivalent of watching the high-school geek drop all his books, flail wildly, and shout, "No, no, stop!" in a squeaky voice when somebody bumped into him by accident. It doesn't exactly send a "Don't mess with us" signal to people who really do intend us harm.

I don't know if that's the fault of the DHS, the mayor, the high-ranking brass who determine policy, or the first responders who report in the perceived threat level. I'm sure that there are a lot of good people trying to do their jobs, but I'm equally sure that that response wasn't the best one.

 

[Paradox]

Actually, they didn't call it "suspicous device" all day once they figured out what it was.

The point that keeps getting overlooked was it was attatched to the infrastructure. It does NOT matter what it is, or if it's declared harmless lite brites NOW by armchair bomb experts. It could have been the triggering mechanism. And, they were not lit at the time they were discovered.

The roads were shut down as a matter of public safety and proceedure. Even if they see it's just a lite brite, until they do- they must and do always follow proceedures.

Sure, lots of things have electronics in them, but eh... are you going to stick your laptop on the underside of a bridge? What do you suppose should happen then? Leaving it unattended at an airport will net the same results. Confiscation and possible detonation. That's why there's a constant stream of "DO NOT LEAVE PACKAGES UNATTENDED" at airports. They do NOT mess around. And that's not an over reaction on anyone's part. It's what they do.

My earlier analogy wasn't a comparison with what happened with 9/11- it's a comparison of following proceedure no matter what. Even when I KNEW for a fact there was no fire, I made sure I got myself and my family out. The net result was a reflex action to get out of the building when the alarm went off. If there ever were a real fire, we'd probably be the only ones who gets out safely and without panicing.

That people aren't taking this seriously is even more of a concern. The cities that didn't respond will be in serious trouble if any such "worse case scenerio" were to ever take place. Indeed, police chiefs in those cities were commenting that Boston did the right thing.

And again, there was no panic. Everything was orderly and nobody got hurt. There was no rioting in the streets.

 

[Vigilance]

^^^Paradox: I'm not saying there shouldn't have been a response.

I'm saying the response was totally out of proportion to any possible conception of the threat.

I mean... the thing attached to the bridge COULD have been a suitcase nuke. It COULD have been a biological device.

Why not evacuate the city next time?

The device on the bridge isn't even the issue to me. Shut down the bridge for an hour, take the device down and detonate it. If the response had stopped there, Id be standing up for the cops like nobody's business.

But the response did NOT stop there.

The discovery of the light boards led state, local and federal authorities to close the Boston University and Longfellow Bridges and block boat traffic from the Charles River to Boston Harbor. In addition, the Pentagon said U.S. Northern Command was monitoring the situation from its headquarters in Colorado Springs, Colorado, but said none of its units were dispatched to assist.

The first device reported was at the Sullivan Square commuter rail station, near the suburb of Somerville, Wednesday morning. Wednesday afternoon, four other devices were reported -- near the Longfellow and Boston University bridges over the Charles, at New England Medical Center and near the intersection of Stuart and Columbus avenues in the city itself, and four more turned up over the course of the day.

They notified Northern Freaking Command!

And they called the devices "suspicious packages" all damn day. Streets were closed all day and so was the subway.

Response out of proportion to threat.

You keep reading that statement as "don't respond". Seattle responded. They took the damn things down.

They didn't close down bridges, universities and subways, nor did they notify Northern Command lol.

 

[jeff37923]

Seattle has also had to deal with similar situations before. Here's a link to an event which happened while I was living at 3rd & Bell Street about three blocks away from Westlake Plaza. It was a mighty sucky day in Seattle when this happened.

http://www.historylink.org/essays/output.cfm?file_id=3679


To say that Boston's response was out of proportion to the threat is easy to do after the fact. While the situation was happening is a different story. I'm not sure what procedures Boston has written for these occurances, but its standard to contact everyone who could be affected by the situation. That would include Northern Command, which makes sense if this was a bomb threat designed to be a diversion for the actual attack. I know that there is a lot of "if" in the above, but most security procedures are written so that the authorities may maximize response to a threat and be ready for the worst case scenario instead of being caught unable to respond. For police, SWAT, bomb squad, and emergency services it is better to error on the side of caution and over-respond then it is to not.

 

[RangerWickett]

A friend of mine emailed this to my gaming group. As some of you may recall, one of my players works at Adult Swim.

Reuters –

1/31/2007

A massive manhunt ended today when Hamid Raoof, ringleader of the so-called CN 5, was arrested by Federal marshals at 6 PM this evening. The search began after several suspicious devices were seen in cities around the country, devices disguised as innocuous ads for Cartoon Network’s “Aqua Teen Hunger Force,” but which, in all likelihood, were part of a secretive international terrorist plot. Events unfolded rapidly in the cold streets of Boston, as the crack Boston PD detonated one of the threatening devices.

“The little sign with blinking lights depicted a box of fries with eyes, and another appeared to be giving us the finger. Clearly, this is the most significant threat to Boston since terrorists boarded that fateful flight from Logan on 9/11 2001,” said a spokesperson for the Boston PD.

“These monsters will be brought to justice,” added department of Homeland Security spokesman Russ Knocke. It was unclear whether he was referring to the individuals who placed the devices, or the animated foodstuffs depicted therein.

The first blow in this counter-terrorism effort was landed at 11:00 AM, when the first of the devices was detonated by Boston police. Prior to this, once the threat had been recognized, the Charles River, all major surface streets and highways, the airport, the municipal buildings, Massachusetts General Hospital, the city zoo, Harvard University, all MacDonalds and Burger King restaurants, Mei Ling’s manicurist, and Joe’s liquors franchises were shut down.

“This cost the city millions of dollars in lost revenue and work hours, but it was worth every penny, considering the alternative,” said the mayor’s spokesman.

When asked what the alternative might have been, considering that the devices were, in fact, rudimentary replicas of the popular “Lite Brite” toy from the 1980’s, the spokesman added, “I’m not at liberty to discuss an ongoing investigation involving the police department, the FBI, and the Department of Homeland Security.”

At this time, the FBI states that Mr. Raoof is simply a “person of interest.” When asked why this particular Cartoon Network employee had been identified, FBI spokesman Walter Harris simply said, “Well, look at his name.”

Russ Knocke went on to say, “We believe this series of ‘ads’ is really a form of signaling to al Qaida, Hamas, Hezbollah, or any combination thereof. We’re taking no chances during these hard times. Our politicians are working harder than ever, spouting ever more banal platitudes about the war on terror, and both sides of the aisle are united in this effort.”

Cartoon Network offices were stormed at 3 PM this afternoon, with animators, writers, and IT personnal thrown to the ground while FBI and CIA agents confiscated reams of color plates, scribblings, and notebooks filled with ribald limerics. “I can’t even begin to explain what we found in there,” stated one FBI agent.

Mr. Raoof, however, had conveniently left early to “play basketball.” He was apprehended hours later returning to his lavish Atlanta home.

FBI and Homeland security spokesmen have laid out several concerning factors surrounding the now-infamous Mr. Raoof. He frequently partakes in tabletop roleplaying games, similar to those enjoyed by students involved in High School massacres at Columbine and in Mississippi. Several Xbox 360 games with violent, anti-establishment motifs were confiscated from his townhome, and through an anonymous source within the FBI, we at Reuters have learned that the composition of his Madden 2007 team is “suspicious.”

“We may not have found anthrax, or a formula for a suitcase nuke, but the anime library alone is explosive,” said the source.

Friend Ryan Nock said, after hearing the news, “Well, Hamid did recently back out of our project – War of the Burning Sky – and seems often to lead somewhat of a double life, but I can’t believe he would be behind a Lite Brite ad campaign. He’s way too cool for that. Oh yeah, and check out our full ad spread at www.ENWorld.org to get your copy of the modules.”

Some have suggested that the Federal Government’s response has been overblown to this situation, that this may be what it appears to be – a low budget ad campaign by a network stretched terribly thin by budgetary constraints. Famed tightwad, manic depressive, and eccentric egomaniacal billionaire Ted Turner has issued a statement – “Whatever those boys did, they did it without my blessing.”

Harvard legal professor Alan Derschowitz, always available for comment, told our reporters today, “Maybe we should try to understand the motivations of these young men. They are in desperate economic straights, forced to these actions to prop up a company supported by, well let’s just say it, geeks.”

But with a government on edge, and with both parties suffering from record-low approval ratings, any BS to distract the nation is good BS. Campaign spokesmen of the 20 democrat and republican candidates for president have issued statements that indicate their approval of the arrests of Raoof and his co-conspirators, unless, of course, this all turns out to be merely a huge misunderstanding that makes local, state, and federal governments look like complete idiots. In which case they were always against.

Early reports have several of the devices bidding for upwards of $1500 on E-Bay. Boston PD officials could not be reached for comment, though bostoncopdawg47’s light board of a talking meatball was currently bringing in that top bid.

 

[Vigilance]

Seattle has also had to deal with similar situations before. Here's a link to an event which happened while I was living at 3rd & Bell Street about three blocks away from Westlake Plaza. It was a mighty sucky day in Seattle when this happened.

http://www.historylink.org/essays/output.cfm?file_id=3679


To say that Boston's response was out of proportion to the threat is easy to do after the fact. While the situation was happening is a different story. I'm not sure what procedures Boston has written for these occurances, but its standard to contact everyone who could be affected by the situation. That would include Northern Command, which makes sense if this was a bomb threat designed to be a diversion for the actual attack. I know that there is a lot of "if" in the above, but most security procedures are written so that the authorities may maximize response to a threat and be ready for the worst case scenario instead of being caught unable to respond. For police, SWAT, bomb squad, and emergency services it is better to error on the side of caution and over-respond then it is to not.

But again, in 9 out of 10 cities, there was no furor. Nothing shut down. Nothing blown up.

What could the authorities have done that would have prompted the authoritarians in this thread to actually wonder if maybe things went to far?

If someone was killed because he looked twitchy, had brown skin and was wearing a big coat like in London, I guess that would have been ok too right.

Because after all, it's easy to Monday Morning QB these things. Their jobs are hard.

Ad executives have hard jobs too. Maybe we should all stop Monday Morning QB'ing Interference Inc's actions here. I mean, they have a 90% record of not freaking out cities. That's a better record than the Boston PD.

 

[Piratecat]

What could the authorities have done that would have prompted the authoritarians in this thread to actually wonder if maybe things went to far?

If someone was killed because he looked twitchy, had brown skin and was wearing a big coat like in London, I guess that would have been ok too right.

The leap in logic here is really quite breathtaking to me. Don't put words in other peoples' mouths - especially when they're so insulting. It dilutes the valid point you're working to make.

You may be surprised to hear it, but I certainly think city government overreacted. It'll be interesting to see the chain-of-action analysis once things relax and get sorted out. Of course, I also think the whole situation shouldn't have happened in the first place -- as far as I can tell, the lack of good judgment was pretty much ubiquitous, and so far no one is showing up smelling like roses.