More about wizards by kunadam

[Stogoe]

I'm certain wizards will still have the staples - Wall of stone, Hold Person, Fly, charm, spiderclimb, etc. But perhaps they won't get Dominate Monster, Shapechange, Gate, Create Greater Undead, Greater Shadow Evocation, PAO, Mass Invisibility, and the like - these will be relegated to the specialist classes.

 

[helium3]

That's probably a good marketing strategy for WotC, and it will be very good for people who like lots of splat books, since the long-term planning for those supplements will help to avoid the power creep that came along with previous editions.

It's a good strategy for helping to ensure strong sales through a longer portion of the editions life-span, but it's not directly good "marketing." Good marketing would be WotC figuring out to convince current players of the game that this change in the base assumption of what "core" means is a good thing for them in the long run.

Needless to say, their marketing on this point (or a lot of the 4E changes to the system for that matter) hasn't been all that good up to this point. Not everyone is willing to accept that a new concept is 'cool' just because the developers say so. Hopefully they'll be able to start making better arguments when they're able to start releasing larger details.

 

[Clavis]

Which not susplrisingly match the four suits of European playing cards: staff, sword, cup and coins (the four suits' origins are deeply rooted in esoteric traditions)...

Now, THAT makes some interesting fluff for me, and something that could actually be of good use in my campaign instead of the old schools of magic (that I am going to miss, I admit...).

For game purposes, I might match the implements up this way:

Wand/Staff: summoning, fire & light-based spells

Dagger/Sword: casting magic circles and Protection From Evil, offensive magic, mind-magic, air & electricity-based spells

Cup: divinations, healing, water and ice-based spells

Pantacle/Disk: buffing spells, defensive spells, earth and plant-based spells.

 

[Aldarc]

Well, never tried to set a SPEAR against a CHARGE?

In various forms the mechanic has been around through more than one edition.

In real world, "fighters" have been choosing their weapons in regards to the opponent they were going to face and/or the situation.

Pikes were used to bring down and kill heavy armored knights, where using slashing weapons were ineffective, lances were developed for mounted combat, and so on...

Okay...how does go against what I said? I was just explaining the basic idea that they were now incorporating for wizards that was already in place for fighters.

 

[JoelF]

It's a good strategy for helping to ensure strong sales through a longer portion of the editions life-span, but it's not directly good "marketing." Good marketing would be WotC figuring out to convince current players of the game that this change in the base assumption of what "core" means is a good thing for them in the long run.

Needless to say, their marketing on this point (or a lot of the 4E changes to the system for that matter) hasn't been all that good up to this point. Not everyone is willing to accept that a new concept is 'cool' just because the developers say so. Hopefully they'll be able to start making better arguments when they're able to start releasing larger details.

I'm feeling like they're stealing their marketing from Magic the Gathering and other collectible games. Buy the starter set, but buy the expansions if you want all the rules. The problem isn't that wizards don't have the variety of spells that they used to (well, that's a problem, but not the big one), but that the DM can't create the necromancer, enchanter, bard, druid, or whatever else isn't there anymore. At least not until they buy the PHII a year later (assuming they want to wait a year for a necromancer). One of the things that was great about 3rd edition when it came out is that it added stuff into core (barbarian, assassin, etc.), but 4th seems to be removing stuff from core, and it just seems limiting after having even just the basic core of 3rd edition.

 

[Gloombunny]

There's some things I like from this preview, and lots I don't. My biggest concern though is that with some of the scope of magic (necromancy, enchantment, etc.) not being part of wizards anymore, but being reserved for future classes, it seems that 4E will be seriously incomplete at the outset. Mabye by 2010 they'll have all the rules for magic that the current PH has - which is 2 years too late in my opinion.

Incomplete is a matter of perspective. In my eyes 4e will be far more complete-in-three-books than 3e, because it'll have warlocks right there in the first book, and maybe even wizards I can enjoy playing. (I hate spell memorization.) To me that's far more important than bards or gnomes or dominate person.

 

[Ahglock]

I'll be interested to hear what exactly they mean by 'rituals'. Traditionally in most games that's meant a significant investment in time and money. The out-of-combat time will be important to me; 10 minutes, 1 hour, 1 day.. each of those will have a significant impact on planning. How much will it cost? 100 gp isn't that significant after a short time. 5000 gp in perfect diamonds is a significant show-stopper even at high levels.

I'm curious about this as well, though probably for a totally different reason. Personally I never had a problem with divination, teleport etc, and I don't need them as rituals to stop them from breaking my campaign. But assuming it is game breaking how does making teleport a ritual stop its game breaking power. If it takes an hour to cast a long range teleport(other than being a really boring and lame visual to me) what does that solve. So you just have to wait until Bob is in a place he likely wont move for an hour. And poof you teleport in and whack him.

Now it does seem to kill teleport as an escape spell, which isn't something I like. I like easy contrived reasons why my BBEG escapes not hard ones. And I'm never saying ah dang i totally would of had a TPK but dang it you teleported away when you were in over your head.

now maybe rituals will have some kind of exhaustion factor, but again unless with teleport all the travelers are exhausted this doesn't seem to stop teleport hit squads. All it means is your one man down and your assassination attempt.

They may pull this off to me cool and great, but for me it just sounds boring.

 

[Rechan]

Now it does seem to kill teleport as an escape spell, which isn't something I like. I like easy contrived reasons why my BBEG escapes not hard ones. And I'm never saying ah dang i totally would of had a TPK but dang it you teleported away when you were in over your head.

I'm pretty sure that short range teleportation will be there and easy to do. The Eladrin get a short range teleport by moving through the Feywild, for instance. 4e is supposed to emphasize combat mobility and moving around the battlefield, so I don't expect them to just rip out "Teleporting 30 feet".

 

[HeavenShallBurn]

I'm pretty sure that short range teleportation will be there and easy to do. The Eladrin get a short range teleport by moving through the Feywild, for instance. 4e is supposed to emphasize combat mobility and moving around the battlefield, so I don't expect them to just rip out "Teleporting 30 feet".

Yes but I believe he was talking about the standard long distance Teleport. Call me unimpressed but I've never felt that Teleport or Raising the Dead were "game breaking." I liked them because they drove home the changes implicit in the powercurve between levels. The game WASN'T supposed to play the same at high level as low level and that gave the steady increase in power a flavor I liked. Restricting these things makes the game play more similarly at levels where it needs differentiation to show the players how far their characters have come and maintain interest.

 

[Ahglock]

I'm pretty sure that short range teleportation will be there and easy to do. The Eladrin get a short range teleport by moving through the Feywild, for instance. 4e is supposed to emphasize combat mobility and moving around the battlefield, so I don't expect them to just rip out "Teleporting 30 feet".

I don't really see 30' as much of an escape spell. Thats more of a he kills me 2 seconds later spell.

At the heroic level its cool it can create some dynamic chase scenes. When you are are the dragon wrastlin levels it just doesn't seem to scream escape spell anymore.