More Balanced game

[Thandren]

Hi,

Our group likes the DnD 3.5 game mechanics, there is some discussion however that some things allow characters to be just too powerfull, some of the things I am referring to are:

1) Two handed weapon power attack does just mega damage at high levels and can be done every round.
2) Sneak attack is at 20th level 10d6 extra on each attack, is this really justified when all you need to do is hit on a flank attack to do a sneak attack, would not have been better for it to be d6 + 1 per 2 levels, i.e. d6+9 at 20th level.
3) Thoose extra books do add feats that can grant advantages and too much power, some examples are Improved combat expertise, Persistent spell......
4) Fast healing epic feat seems a bit too good, and epic dodge.. h'mmmm....

What are your feelings on this?

 

[Belen]

Technically, a two-handed weaponeer takes an AC loss, but I agree that two-handed weapon fighting in 3.5 is utterly disgusting and makes all other fighting styles look unviable.

As for Rogue sneak attack, many of the creatures that you fight at 20th level cannot be crit, so rogues rarely get successful sneak attempts at high level. There is no issue with that one.

 

[Numion]

2) Sneak attack is at 20th level 10d6 extra on each attack, is this really justified when all you need to do is hit on a flank attack to do a sneak attack, would not have been better for it to be d6 + 1 per 2 levels, i.e. d6+9 at 20th level.

Sneak Attack is balanced in my experience. It's potentially a lot of damage, but it's outset by the rogues poorer to-hits. Flanking is also quite dangerous for those not built to take damage from all directions.

My beef for sneak attack is actually almost the opposite: quite a lot of the high-level challenges are immune to it :\

I agree with the others. Fast healing isn't that powerful though. At higher levels you usually need healing right now.

 

[The Lost Muse]

1) Assuming a +5 weapon at 20th level, and 20 strength, weapon focus, weapon specialization, and the greater versions of both those feats, you can subtract up to 20 from your attack roll, and add it to damage. (IMHO, you can only subtract so much if you are making a single attack; since you can only subtract as much as your BAB, if you are making multiple attacks the most you can take off is +5). You can do 1d12+20 (pa) + 5 (enc) + 7 (Str) + 4 (feats) (total +36 damage) Your bonus to hit will be +12, hitting an average AC of 22. Compared to a wizard slinging out spells, well, not so good. A fireball maxes out at 10d6 (average 30 damage) but the wizard doesn't have to roll to hit; a 20th level psion only has to make a touch attack to assimilate, dealing 20d6 damage. Fighters are less effective at higher levels but the are meant to be able to deal the most damage.

2) Average damage on 10d6 is 30, equivalent to the damage a 10th level wizard deals out with a fireball.

3) The feats in the extra books are optional add-ons. Actually, any feat you don't want to allow is an optional add-on; however, most of the material in the PHB was playtested more than the material in the Complete series.

4) Epic level play is also an optional set of rules, and I don't see the epic feats as being overpowered for epic level characters.

 

[Kae'Yoss]

First of all: Welcome to the Boards!

1) Two handed weapon power attack does just mega damage at high levels and can be done every round.

It always depends on the kind of monsters they encounter. If they only meet barbarian types with AC 8 in rage, then of course this is true. But pit them against an enemy with a higher AC and suddenly their power attack will only make them miss, especially the lower attacks-

2) Sneak attack is at 20th level 10d6 extra on each attack, is this really justified when all you need to do is hit on a flank attack to do a sneak attack, would not have been better for it to be d6 + 1 per 2 levels, i.e. d6+9 at 20th level.

Nah, it's good as it is. There's a couple of things to consider:

It only works against certain targets. COUPE monsters are right out (construct, ooze, undead, plant, elemental), as are those with heavy fortification armours (I grant you that the letter isn't something everyone has).

And even if the enemy is elegible per se, you have to get the opportunity. If the enemy spots you, your hiding won't work. If he can discern invisible creatures, or succeeds in a dispel attempt (he or one of his flunkies), greater invisibility won't work. If he won't just stand there and let you and your buddies flank him, you might have to move more than 5 feet to get to him, meaning you'll only get one sneak attack.

And, of course, a rogue might be good at dealing damage, but he's not as good taking it. So you continuously poke that big bad monster in its softer parts: Do you think it will ignore you? Chances are it will attack you with increased fervour. And a full attack from a big bad hitting machine is not something every rogue will take in stride. Maybe he can't take it at all.
And that's not the sum of your problems: Some critters might just decide to grab that pesky little nuisance and squeeze the hell out of it.

Rogues are usually not as well armoured as their fighter companions, and can't take as much punishment. So you'll probably get hit more often when you can afford less. And have less chance to resist a grapple.

3) Thoose extra books do add feats that can grant advantages and too much power, some examples are Improved combat expertise, Improved Toughness, Persistent spell......

I actually changed Combat Expertise to include improved combat expertise as I think this is not such a powerful tactic.
Improved Toughness isn't so bad, either. In fact, many changed the original toughness to work like Improved Toughness. After all, wasting a feat for a measly three hit points isn't the best investment.
The old Persistant Spell was indeed quite powerful, and that's why they changed it. Now that it increases the spell's effective level by 6, it's not the problem it was (no more persistant divine power and righteous might)

 

[Pickaxe]

I've wondered why, although they have a similar mechanic, Combat Expertise is limited to +5 and Power Attack is not. Anyone know the rationale behind this?

--Axe

 

[EricNoah]

Are these concerns coming from actual play, or just from looking at the rules and speculating?

10d6 sounds like a lot -- but when you're 20th level and the party's wizards and clerics are casting miracle or time stop, 30 points of damage isn't a lot.

A large number of creatures at that level of the game have Damage Resistance. You've got to get past 10 or 15 points of that just to inflict a single point of damage. That's where Power Attack is helpful for the fighter types.

I played a fighter/rogue up into low epic levels, and surviving combat only becomes more challenging, as does dishing out damage. It may look like it gets easier (or "too easy"), but the foes are significantly tougher.

 

[TheNovaLord]

perhaps the party should start at 1st and not leap into 20th level?

most rpg get very unwieldy at very high level./power settings

tend to find D&D 3.5 gets very complex and unwieldy and people forget things at around 10th or so.

JohnD

PS average of 10d6 is 35

 

[EricNoah]

I've wondered why, although they have a similar mechanic, Combat Expertise is limited to +5 and Power Attack is not. Anyone know the rationale behind this?

--Axe

I think it's because the game is built with the idea that it's going to be easier to gain a bonus on attacks, and harder to gain bonuses on defense. I seem to remember the math being explained by Jonathan Tweet early on -- the attack bonuses go up faster than a typical character's access to AC bonuses.

 

[Question]

1) Two handed weapon power attack does just mega damage at high levels and can be done every round.

At high levels spellcasters slap fighters around damage wise. Epic, its even worse, what with the pathetic epic rules regarding epic weapons.

2) Sneak attack is at 20th level 10d6 extra on each attack, is this really justified when all you need to do is hit on a flank attack to do a sneak attack, would not have been better for it to be d6 + 1 per 2 levels, i.e. d6+9 at 20th level.

How is this imba? There are monsters specifically immune to this. What is a rogue supposed to do then, agaisnt constructs and undead, poke them with a rapier doing piddly amounts of damage each round? Not to mention that flanking is risky with the rogue's low HP, average BAB also hurts. Granted there are ways round that (superior invisibility), but there are ways around those ways(true seeing).

3) Thoose extra books do add feats that can grant advantages and too much power, some examples are Improved combat expertise, Improved Toughness, Persistent spell......

I think you are looking at the wrong way. The books are not expansion packs EA style to a game......they are intended to give players more options, and more variety. They are not intended to give players with more sources more powerful PCs. In fact the majority of splatbook content is underpowered, with a few being useful and a VERY few being broken. It seems silly to me when DMs over-react "OMG you cant use complete divine because it has divine metamagic in it so OBVIOUSLY the ENTIRE book is broken!!!!".

For the record, while you may make yourself invulnerable to attacks with improved combat expertise, you have spent 2 feats to make yourself nothing more but a high AC meatshield, and enemies can just walk past you.

Persistent spell is what, +6 spell level mod? Spending a 7-9th level spell slot to keep a low level buff up all day is hardly imba, especially since some buffs at high levels are pratically all day long anyway.

Just how is +1 hp/level broken? This completely boggles the mind.

4) Fast healing epic feat seems a bit too good, and epic dodge.. h'mmmm....

Fast healing epic feat is underpowered. fast healing 3 is NOTHING in an epic game.....the extra 3 hp/round will not save you, nor will it render healing impotent, as the healer has way too many heal spells available to use up all day, unless you have a sadistic DM. Its a complete waste of an epic feat which is even rarer than normal feats.

Epic dodge min req is level 27 and only negates 1 physical attack per round. Solution : Target the rogue with more than 1 attack a round.