More feats, fewer choices

[malraux]

snip

For me, its more that I can see what good a particular supplement will do for my game/character. In the 3e model, every book that came out would have to have a few new base classes, a few new PrCs, new feats, spells, monsters, etc. But the PrC might be one designed for rogues, even though its primarily an arcanist focused book. Or a fighter bonus feat. But it was always hard to justify an entire book for a single spell or feat. So far, the niche designs seem to make it so that if I'm a martial class, I'll never have to worry about stuff in a psionic book. OTOH, I'll probably get a lot of benefit from the martial book. At least, that's how I feel. The organization of the material feels more top down than it did in 3e.

 

[Stalker0]

I agree with Rystil 100%.

The reality is this, there aren't that many feat choices for any one character in 4e right now. Part of that is a lack of feats in general, part of it is that many feats are hard to qualify for.

You can argue points and stats all you want, but I've made several characters, including a few paragon ones. I found my feat choices limited everytime. I was never picking feats I wanted, I was settling for feats that I could take.

I'm sure upcoming splatbooks will fix this issue. But until then, that's our reality.

 

[Blackeagle]

I think your disconnect comes via your definition of Min/Maxing.

I (and probably smallpumpkinman too) define it as choosing, in minutia, to build a character with the non-key abilities exactly the lowest they can be to get the maximum number of benefits without paying much for it, then pour everything else into the key abilities (either all at once for a one-trick-pony or in several ways to get extreme versatility).

This is pretty much the definition of min-maxing given in the Wikipedia article on the subject. "Min-maxing is the practice of playing a role-playing game, wargame or video game with the intent of creating the "best" character by means of minimizing undesired or unimportant traits and maximizing desired ones. This is usually accomplished by improving one specific trait or ability by sacrificing ability in all other fields."

In that sense, choosing 8 in a stat because you want to roleplay your character having a notable weakness in that ability score is less min/maxing than grabbing 13 in that stat because you need it to get the prime feats. Going into character build with the list of feats open and selecting your stats (and planning the raises) exactly so you can qualify for feats all the way through your career definitely seems like min/maxing to me.

I don't think that really meets the accepted definition of min-maxing. You aren't minimizing a useless trait to maximize a useful one, you're trading off one useful trait against another. That may be character optimization, but it isn't really minmaxing.

 

[Blackeagle]

The reality is this, there aren't that many feat choices for any one character in 4e right now. Part of that is a lack of feats in general, part of it is that many feats are hard to qualify for.

Maybe we just need to change the way we build characters. In 3e you could pretty much set your stats any way you wanted (whether driven by min-maxing or by character concept). Trying to build a character in 4e that way isn't going to work very well. There are a lot fewer stats where a given class or build can dump without giving anything up in return.

 

[Rystil Arden]

I agree with Rystil 100%.

The reality is this, there aren't that many feat choices for any one character in 4e right now. Part of that is a lack of feats in general, part of it is that many feats are hard to qualify for.

You can argue points and stats all you want, but I've made several characters, including a few paragon ones. I found my feat choices limited everytime. I was never picking feats I wanted, I was settling for feats that I could take.

I'm sure upcoming splatbooks will fix this issue. But until then, that's our reality.

Ah, you made some Paragons too? Interesting. I actually found that there were enough Paragon feats for me to fill the tier (hypothetically) with ones I wanted for my Wisdom Cleric. Epic did not do that for me, though (with so few choices, how could it?) and neither did Heroic. I'll admit that over half the feats I wanted from Paragon tier simply added to my defenses (maybe because the feat choices were so blah in Heroic, I was absolutely stoked to go for Great Fortitude and its siblings, for instance).

Of course, my hypothetical selections in Paragon tier are not as solid as my actual gameplay-based feat insights from Heroic. I should be playing KotS again this weekend and leveling up to 3 or perhaps 4, so I'll keep everyone updated on how it all changes, if at all.

 

[Hussar]

As I mentioned in the other thread, how is four choices at a given level limited? And, those could easily be 6 choices with a minimum of reworking of the stats.

Choices I find bland for aesthetic reasons =/= Lack of choices.

 

[Cadfan]

This PHB is the biggest, heaviest, most crunch filled book D&D has seen in ages, if we've ever seen one at all. And yet people whine that its intentionally light to trick you into buying more books.

For crying out loud. Its only one book. By its nature, its the most generic of the books. So its got a lot of generic feats. That's how it goes.

 

[Rystil Arden]

As I mentioned in the other thread, how is four choices at a given level limited? And, those could easily be 6 choices with a minimum of reworking of the stats.

Choices I find bland for aesthetic reasons =/= Lack of choices.

It's essentially those same choices for the whole heroic tier.

 

[Stalker0]

As I mentioned in the other thread, how is four choices at a given level limited? And, those could easily be 6 choices with a minimum of reworking of the stats.

Choices I find bland for aesthetic reasons =/= Lack of choices.

I guess that's a personal preference then, because I find only being able to choose 2 out of 4 at wills extremely limiting. 4 choices isn't a lot, and then thing is the list of feats you want tend to shrink pretty fast until you hit paragon tier.

 

[Rystil Arden]

I guess that's a personal preference then, because I find only being able to choose 2 out of 4 at wills extremely limiting. 4 choices isn't a lot, and then thing is the list of feats you want tend to shrink pretty fast until you hit paragon tier.

Indeed--if I take Toughness and Improved Init at levels 2 and 4, I'll have just Skill Focus and Skill Training as choices when level 6 rolls around. That's 2 choices (and not two very different ones either).