Moritheil's AC Rule

[ThirdWizard]

I guess I should point out that, since I'm posting this thread because I'm positive people can show me how to break through this ceiling . . . I'm not really looking for comments that the existing ceiling is unattainable. That's just a statement of fact - please don't take it the wrong way.

You asked for corrections. I'm saying your entire premise is flawed, if it is based off of a very small subsection of levels, as a general rule.

 

[kerbarian]

I have a new rule of thumb for determining the optimum AC one can get at a given level: it's generally 5 times that level. Obviously, this breaks down at low levels (below level 5), but otherwise, it should be OK.

This is not the absolute maximum; rather, it's a guideline that says, "if you have more than X amount of AC, you're doing quite well." My reason for posting this is that I know of at least one other player who is generally able to one-up me in the AC optimization department, and I hope to identify others who can break through this ceiling (and otherwise gain a general sense of how many people out there can do it.)

It would help if you started by posting some of the builds you've already come up with -- then people can suggest methods of boosting AC that you may have overlooked.

The AC achievable will also depend a lot on how much buffing is allowed. Are we talking about the AC you can achieve for several rounds, all buffed up for a BBEG fight, or are we talking about an AC that you can maintain for at least hours every day?

I haven't looked into the problem much, but if you're looking at peak AC, you can get at least +36 AC at any level just with items:

+8 full plate (1500gp)
+4 tower shield (30gp)
+5 oil of magic vestment CL20 on full plate (3000gp)
+5 oil of magic vestment CL20 on tower shield (3000gp)
+5 potion of shield of faith CL18 (900gp)
+5 potion of barkskin CL12 (1200gp)
+2 potion of reduce person (50gp)
+1 potion of haste (750gp)
+1 dusty rose ioun stone (5000gp)

In town, you can pay a wizard 1200gp to cast Polymorph Any Object on you into some form with high natural armor and/or dex that's similar enough to you that the duration is permanent (or at least a week).

All that would run 16,630gp, which is technically affordable at 7th level. At 7HD, let's say the PAO form is an Annis, for a base AC of 20 (and also costing an extra 1530 for making the armor and shield size large). With feats, you can get +9 AC that I can think of offhand (Dodge, Heavy Armor Optimization, Improved Combat Expertise for +7), and with the items that would be AC 65 at 7th level, but you'd burn all your money pulling it off once.

 

[KarinsDad]

I haven't tried level 18. What I have is level 8 with 40 AC, level 10 with 50 AC, and level 12 with 60 AC. I'm unable to get 100 AC at level 20, but it's a simple matter to get 105 AC at level 21.

I suppose I should amend the statement to, "I can't get 100 AC at 20 with a viable character." All the data points I confirmed are quite capable of beating normal encounters for their level, and generally speaking, of defeating normal player characters at that level. (Pun-Puns, Iaijutsu masters, and Hukling Hurlers need not apply.) The point is not just to get AC up - it is to build a perfectly functioning character who also happens to have a really high AC. I probably shouldn't have to explain this, but that is a classic desired result of build-tweaking - to have a build that is just as good as someone else's in most fields, but also has more saves, more hit points, more spell slots, etc. without giving up anything that is significant in regular gameplay.

This is not an idle exercise in calculation, and neither is its purpose ego-inflation. Notes from other players indicate that the maximum theoretical AC at each level should be above the ceiling I have hit, and I want to know how to get there.

To get to x6, I used the SRD plus Book of Exalted Deeds. Obviously, you can get it better by using other WotC products.


32 point buy Halfling Str 10, Int 15, Wis 14, Dex 16, Con 14, Cha 10
bumps up Dex to 24, Int to 16, every 4 levels

Vow of Poverty Str 10, Int 20, Wis 20, Dex 32, Con 16, Cha 10

Monk 1 / Egoist Psion 19

AC 26 = +1 size Halfling plus stats

AC 36 = Vow of Poverty +10 AC (exalted)

AC 40 = Compression +2 AC Dex (size), +2 size

AC 49 = Force Screen +9 AC (shield) level 21 (Overchannel Feat)

AC 63 = Inertial Armor +14 AC (armor) level 21 (Overchannel)

AC 68 = Mental Barrier +5 AC (deflection) level 9

AC 76 = Precognition, Defensive +8 AC (insight) level 22 (Overchannel)

AC 84 = Thicken Skin +8 AC (natural) level 22 (Overchannel)

AC 88 = Reality Revision, +4 Insight bonus on Wisdom and Dexterity

AC 90 = Dodge Feat plus Psionic Dodge

When he really wants to boost it, he does:

AC 120 = Greater Metamorphis Great Wyrm Copper Dragon +30 AC (+43 AC, -5 size delta, -8 natural delta)

Any PC who can metamorphis into a Great Wyrm has got to be considered viable.


Note: Temporal Acceleration can be used to get 3 powers manifested per round.

Note: This AC can be boosted more with powers like Psychofeedback, by upping his Dex and Wisdom and insight bonuses even more, etc.

Note: Without using a single power (outside of Reality Revision), this PC has an AC of 45 (47 with Dodge and Psionic Dodge). Inertial Armor (every 21 hours) makes that 59 (61). So, basically around 3x level most of the time, 5.5x level within one round, and nearly 6x level within two rounds.

Edit: Opps. Did this late at night, IA only needs to be manifested every 21 hours since it is overchanneled. Course, if I was playing this character, I would Extend it and only do it every 38 hours and drop the AC by one.

 

[Iku Rex]

Level 6 - 9x +

Sun Elf Monk1/Wizard 5 (transmuter)
32 point buy
+1 Dex lv 4, +2 Int, -2 Con, Sun Elf

Str 8
Dex 18
Con 9
Int 20
Wis 8
Cha 8

Feats: Otherworldly (PGtF), Carmendine Monk (Champions of Valor), Practiced Spellcaster (CD)

Has a ring of protection +2 and dusty rose ioun stone (cost 8000+5000 gp, max 13000 gp lvl 6)

Spells cast: Greater Mage Armor (SC), Dragonskin (SC), Alter Self (dwarf ancestor, MMIV ), Cat's Grace, Fox's Cunning, Shield

AC:
10
-1 size
+18 natural armor (alter self)
+2 deflection (ring)
+1 insight (ioun stone)
+6 Dex (+4+2 cat's grace)
+7 Int (Carmendine Monk, +5+2 fox's cunning)
+3 enhancement natural armor (dragonskin)
+6 armor (greater mage armor)
+4 shield (shield spell)
= 56

Haste could make it 57, and figting defensively could add another +3 for the full 10x.

Make the ring +1 (or use create magic tattoo from SC), drop the ioun stone and buy permanent +2 stat boosters for Int and Dex and the AC goes down by four in return for some spending money and only having to cast one short duration buff (shield). The Ascetic Mage feat from CAdv can do much the same for a sorcerer as Carmendine Monk does for a wizard (Int/Cha-to-AC) if Champions of Valor is off-limits.

 

[moritheil]

You asked for corrections. I'm saying your entire premise is flawed, if it is based off of a very small subsection of levels, as a general rule.

Okay, I appreciate that. But I've seen it done, and under a DM who checks things for legality, so I know it can be done. It's a nonissue.

Iku Rex and KD, thanks for your examples. I confess I had actually thrown out the idea of using Vow of Poverty due to the inability to wear armor. Seeing two ceiling-breaking builds that don't use armor is an eye-opener.

Ker, I'm talking about AC for a reasonable fight, not a one-shot peak AC. Thus, maybe 1-2 rounds of buffing (preferably none, of course, but that goes without saying.)

 

[kerbarian]

The Ascetic Mage feat from CAdv can do much the same for a sorcerer as Carmendine Monk does for a wizard (Int/Cha-to-AC) if Champions of Valor is off-limits.

Speaking of which, I'll throw one of those builds out:

Neraph (or Elf w/Otherworldly) Monk 1 / Sorcerer 11.

35 - base AC for polymorph into a Kelvezu
+6 greater mage armor
+5 mithral buckler +4 (16k)
+3 ring of prot. +3 (18k)
+5 dragonskin
+7 monk + ascetic mage -- cha 20 + 12 effective monk levels
+2 cloak of charisma +4 -- boosts monk bonus (16k)
+2 gloves of dex +4 (16k)
+1 dusty rose ioun stone (5k)
+1 haste
+1 dodge

Total: 68 at L12.

That's with one 1hour/level buff (greater mage armor), one 10min/level (dragonskin), one 1min/level (polymorph), and one 1round/level (haste). Some of those could be extended, of course. Also quite effective in melee with haste, flurry of blows, and 8d6 sneak attack damage + con-damage poison. Sprinkle with Wraith Strike to taste . Not only would Wraith Strike be great for damage, but it also lets you easily use full combat expertise for another +5 AC -- total of 73.

Probably more effective (though slightly lower AC) would be to cut back on the AC items a little bit and buy a ring of blinking. That gives a 50% miss chance for pretty much all incoming attacks and spells and half damage from area effects, plus it means that against most targets, every attack will get the sneak attack damage.

 

[Iku Rex]

Neraph (or Elf w/Otherworldly) Monk 1 / Sorcerer 11.

...
+5 mithral buckler +4 (16k)
...

(You can't use a buckler. Bucklers count as armor.)

 

[Question]

You can get fairly high ACs if you allow players to make items that give insight, luck, sacred or profane AC bonuses. But i dont think its a problem, its impossible to get really high ACs as a front line fighter without being near helpless in actually dealing damage.

 

[KarinsDad]

Just for grins.


Core Only - Extremist Build - versus single opponent

Level 1 Halfling Specialist Wizard

Dodge Feat

25 point buy

Str 6
Int 14
Wis 8
Con 9
Dex 20
Cha 8

Spells cast: Mage Armor +4, Shield +4, Protection From Evil +2, Flare, Grease (from scroll)

AC 11 - +1 AC Size
AC 16 - +5 AC Dexterity
AC 20 = +4 AC Mage Armor
AC 24 = +4 AC Shield
AC 26 = +2 AC Protection From Evil
AC 27 = +1 AC Dodge against opponent
AC 31 = +4 AC Total Defense
AC 39 = +8 AC Improved Cover
AC 41 = +2 AC Familiar's Aid Another versus Melee Attacks

AC 43 = +2 effective AC opponent Entangled by Tanglefoot Bag 3 rounds earlier
AC 44 = +1 effective AC opponent Dazzled by Flare 2 rounds earlier
AC 48 = +4 effective AC opponent Prone by Grease last round

AC = 48 * level if opponent misses saves/skill checks, 41 * level otherwise

Plus Concealment.

It could get to 50 * level if the opponent was squeezing instead of entangled, but that requires cooperation from the opponent as opposed to just missed saving throws.

 

[nameless]

(You can't use a buckler. Bucklers count as armor.)

A mithral buckler has a 0 spell failure penalty and 0 armor check penalty. Even using it untrained, there is nothing penalizing any of your rolls.