Most attacks per round

[James McMurray]

I'll have to doublecheck PHBII to be sure, but I'm pretty sure that the Polymorph subschool (and all its effects) applies to the Polymorph spell.

 

[pawsplay]

I'll have to doublecheck PHBII to be sure, but I'm pretty sure that the Polymorph subschool (and all its effects) applies to the Polymorph spell.

I'm sure it does, but the description of polymorph spefically overrides those general rules.

Article-age:

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/dd/20060216a

Alter self:

You assume the form of a creature of the same type as your normal form. The new form must be within one size category of your normal size. The maximum HD of an assumed form is equal to your caster level, to a maximum of 5 HD at 5th level. You can change into a member of your own kind or even into yourself.

You retain your own ability scores. Your class and level, hit points, alignment, base attack bonus, and base save bonuses all remain the same. You retain all supernatural and spell-like special attacks and qualities of your normal form, except for those requiring a body part that the new form does not have (such as a mouth for a breath weapon or eyes for a gaze attack).

You keep all extraordinary special attacks and qualities derived from class levels, but you lose any from your normal form that are not derived from class levels.


Polymorph:

This spell functions like alter self, except that you change the willing subject into another form of living creature. The new form may be of the same type as the subject or any of the following types: aberration, animal, dragon, fey, giant, humanoid, magical beast, monstrous humanoid, ooze, plant, or vermin. The assumed form can’t have more Hit Dice than your caster level (or the subject’s HD, whichever is lower), to a maximum of 15 HD at 15th level. You can’t cause a subject to assume a form smaller than Fine, nor can you cause a subject to assume an incorporeal or gaseous form. The subject’s creature type and subtype (if any) change to match the new form.

Upon changing, the subject regains lost hit points as if it had rested for a night (though this healing does not restore temporary ability damage and provide other benefits of resting; and changing back does not heal the subject further). If slain, the subject reverts to its original form, though it remains dead.

The subject gains the Strength, Dexterity, and Constitution scores of the new form but retains its own Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma scores. It also gains all extraordinary special attacks possessed by the form but does not gain the extraordinary special qualities possessed by the new form or any supernatural or spell-like abilities.

Incorporeal or gaseous creatures are immune to being polymorphed, and a creature with the shapechanger subtype can revert to its natural form as a standard action.

 

[MarkB]

I'll have to doublecheck PHBII to be sure, but I'm pretty sure that the Polymorph subschool (and all its effects) applies to the Polymorph spell.

t does, in a way, but part of the rules for the Polymorph subschool is that text in existing spell descriptions overrides the text in the subschool description. In other words, the subschool provides guidelines for creating future polymorphing spells, but it does not alter existing ones.

 

[James McMurray]

I'm sure it does, but the description of polymorph spefically overrides those general rules.

Article-age:

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/dd/20060216a

The article is older than the PHB II. If the book changes anything, the article wouldn't necessarily know about it.

 

[James McMurray]

t does, in a way, but part of the rules for the Polymorph subschool is that text in existing spell descriptions overrides the text in the subschool description. In other words, the subschool provides guidelines for creating future polymorphing spells, but it does not alter existing ones.

That's partly why I said I'd have to check the book to be sure. WotC does some weird things sometimes, so them writing a couple pages worth of polymorphing rules and not having them apply to the polymorph spell wouldn't surprise me.

In either case though, as I already said, the size and range issues, not to mention not having to rely on another character to buff you, make TWF + RS + Flurry better in some situations.

 

[starwed]

I have the strangest urge to run a game where the enemy is a Marilith dervish/monk...

 

[Kae'Yoss]

Leadership's your best bet. Get dozens of followers with 1+ attacks each!

 

[glass]

A 12 headed hydra has 12 bites. Greater Two Weapon Fighting + Rapid Shot + Flurry of Blows only gives 11, but you get to keep all your class abilities and can do it in a small area where being huge is annoying. You can also take all those attacks at range if need be.

Any reason why you can't do both?

OK, so TWF and Rapid Shot aren't going to work, but you can still take you unarmed strikes (5 for a flurrying monk) with the bites as secondaries, for a total of 17.


glass.

 

[kelson]

here is an idea. I am not sure if it could work though. twf + ranks in perform(juggle) and 8 dancing swords (+4 enchantment from phb) he can toss 2 swords into the air per round, and once there they attack independantly and he is considered unarmed. they fight for 4 rounds, and use all of your own stats, same number of attacks per turn, same BAB. each round toss another set into the air. eventualy you have 6 in the air at any time, and 2 that you have to catch and toss back up (juggleing) that is your normal attacks x3. just tack that on to anything that can get a massive number of attacks per turn. I believe that the best someone has said yet was 15? that would make 45 attacks per turn...

 

[James McMurray]

Any reason why you can't do both?

OK, so TWF and Rapid Shot aren't going to work, but you can still take you unarmed strikes (5 for a flurrying monk) with the bites as secondaries, for a total of 17.

The FAQ says no.

Can a monk who has natural weapon attacks (such as a
centaur monk) attack unarmed and still use his natural
weapons? For example, let’s say he’s a 4th-level monk. Can
he use a flurry of blows and attack at +5/+5/+0 unarmed
(plus other bonuses) and then at +0/+0 for 2 hooves?

If the creature normally is allowed to make both weapon
attacks and natural weapon attacks as part of the same full
attack routine, the monk can do the same (making unarmed
strikes in place of weapon attacks). Since a centaur can make
two hoof attacks in addition to his longsword attack, a centaur
monk can make two hoof attacks in addition to his unarmed
strike attack (or attacks, depending on his base attack bonus).
The monk can’t use his natural weapon attacks as part of a
flurry of blows, but he can make natural weapon attacks in
addition to his flurry. Such attacks suffer the same –2 penalty
as the monk’s flurry attacks in addition to the normal –5
penalty for secondary natural attacks.

An 4th-level centaur monk has a base attack bonus of +7
(+4 from his 4 monstrous humanoid Hit Dice, and +3 from his
8 monk levels). If he performs a flurry of blows, he makes
three unarmed strikes, at +5/+5/+0. He can add two hoof
attacks at –2/–2 (–5 as secondary weapons, and –2 from the
flurry).

A hydra is not a creature that is normally allowed to make both weapon and natural weapon attacks at the same time, so he can't take monk attacks at the same time he flurries.

That does raise an interesting alternative though: half-dragon centaur monk. Now you've added 2 hooves and a bite to the mix, surpassing the 12 bites from the polymorphed to a hydra maneuver. 4 Base + 4 GTWF + 1 RS + 2 Flurry + 2 Hooves + 1 Bite + 1 Haste = 15 attacks.