Most common cause of PC deaths

[the black knight]

Mockery of players

Actually, I'd say it's spoken like a true DM, period. Most DMs, including myself, don't go out of their way to kill PCs. I do my best not to kill them but, more often than not, they do something stupid (like try to run past a large creature even though they KNOW he has reach and they're low on HP) and die.

Sorry, but you're flat-out wrong; it's simple ignorance of (and arrogance generated by) one's position as DM. If you're holding all the cards and sit on high, everything your PCs do may well look stupid to you. Come down from your mountain for five minutes and realize that.

I do, however, acknowledge that good players make bad choices, but that's not what I'm talking about here. I've seen way too many DMs with low self-esteem and scores to settle with the real world take it out on their players, laughing at them outright when they walk into the DM's 'I'll make them all pay for my miserable life' TPK scenario. Of course, they later play it off like the PCs had a chance to begin with and put it all down to player 'stupidity,' which is the kind of which ruins this game for a lot of people.

I never hesitate to take these guys to task for such power-DMing crap. I've even usurped many of their games for doing so, taking every last player with me as a result. You should see their faces when they realize their little world has crumbled beneath their feet.

 

[TheAuldGrump]

Hmmm, Hit Point loss.

For my OGL Steampunk campaign it was Massive Damage, until I added a house rule to allow limb loss instead.

The Auld Grump

 

[Hussar]

Black Knight - be fair though. There are some blindingly stupid examples of character behavior out there. Beyond simple bad luck or underestimation, there's some players out there who simply prove Darwin right.

For example, the party has excellent cover and ranged weapons and the enemy is at least two movements (if not more) away. Instead of firing from their position, the party priest decides she's going to frontally assault the groups that outnumbers her about 12 to 1. Result, dead priest. Now, you could say that this is DM powertripping, me, I see it as blindingly bad tactical sense.

 

[Bladesong]

Sorry, but you're flat-out wrong; it's simple ignorance of (and arrogance generated by) one's position as DM. If you're holding all the cards and sit on high, everything your PCs do may well look stupid to you. Come down from your mountain for five minutes and realize that.

I do, however, acknowledge that good players make bad choices, but that's not what I'm talking about here. I've seen way too many DMs with low self-esteem and scores to settle with the real world take it out on their players, laughing at them outright when they walk into the DM's 'I'll make them all pay for my miserable life' TPK scenario. Of course, they later play it off like the PCs had a chance to begin with and put it all down to player 'stupidity,' which is the kind of which ruins this game for a lot of people.

I never hesitate to take these guys to task for such power-DMing crap. I've even usurped many of their games for doing so, taking every last player with me as a result. You should see their faces when they realize their little world has crumbled beneath their feet.

I agree that this could be possible, just like the comment here could be a perfect example of a player with the same problem (i.e. arrogance, low self-esteem, he MUST be out to get me paranoia, etc.).

 

[the black knight]

Black Knight - be fair though. There are some blindingly stupid examples of character behavior out there. Beyond simple bad luck or underestimation, there's some players out there who simply prove Darwin right.

For example, the party has excellent cover and ranged weapons and the enemy is at least two movements (if not more) away. Instead of firing from their position, the party priest decides she's going to frontally assault the groups that outnumbers her about 12 to 1. Result, dead priest. Now, you could say that this is DM powertripping, me, I see it as blindingly bad tactical sense.

Yeah, a case in point if there ever was one...

I won't deny that players make bad choices (and I've made some doozies over the years), I'm just annoyed when a DM tries to assign stupidity to something that was unquestionably TPK material, because, let's face it, that's what subterfuge is all about.

I started to write a response to the bad DM thread the other day, but I found I had too much material to work with (and didn't feel like putting it all down, anyway). I really believe that as some people aspire to being bosses, and should be anything but, there are those people out there who just shouldn't be DMing.

 

[Agamon]

Of all the PC deaths I've seen (or inflicted) over the years, 2 were due to mind flayer brain-extraction, 1 was due to death touch (Death Domain granted power), and every other one (and there's at least 20 in that list) was due to hitting the old -10.

Ooh, ooh! I want to list the PC deaths that have happened in my current game thus far:

Torn apart by chained huge howler; L5 human paladin; hp loss and stupidity
Torn apart by unchained huge howler; L5 minotaur; hp loss
Splattered by troll barbarian; L5 human druid; hp loss
Zapped by a lightning bolt; L5 elven cleric; hp loss
Transformation stone to flesh trauma; L3 half-brass dragon samurai; failed save and stupidity
Bashed by charging hill giant; L6 dwarven barbarian; hp loss
Squished by falling ceiling trap; L6 human rogue; failed save, hp loss and stupidity
Bludgeoned by stone golem; L6 dwarven fighter; hp loss and stupidity
Opportune attack by a fiendish dire lion; L6 half-ogre barbarian; hp loss and stupidity
Diced in a human fighter's whirlwind attack; L7 goliath barbarian; hp loss

Phew. Five of those are from one player. I think he's tired of making new PCs.

 

[demiurge1138]

Hit point loss. Although there has been a big showing for grapple+paralyze+coup de grace (chuuls, canoloths, etc).

And never once have I seen anyone die of negative levels.

Demiurge out.

 

[Agamon]

There is a couple of ways to look at this. Depending on the type of DM you have, or maybe expect to have, you might think you've died because of bad DMing, but the DM might not think so.

A referee-style DM lets the dice fall where they may, so to speak. Tactics are by-the-book and die rolls aren't fudged, it's sorta like being the computer in a CRPG.

A guide-style DM wants to tell a good story. If things aren't going as planned or the dice are rolling too many 20s or 1s, this DM might change things up to make the story work or make it more interesting.

I admit I lean more to the former running RttToEE (see above post with the death list) and more the latter with my homebrew, though I really don't like either absolute at all.

The point is, the DM needs to let the player know what to expect from him as a DM. This way, the player might take less chances (aka 'be less stupid') if the DM is a referee, or be a little more heroic with a more story-oriented DM.

If the DM plays it one style and the player expects another, the DM might see the PC's death as stupid, where the player might think he's been cheated.

None of this takes into account bad DMs, which you should just avoid like the plague.

 

[Hussar]

Yeah, a case in point if there ever was one...

I won't deny that players make bad choices (and I've made some doozies over the years), I'm just annoyed when a DM tries to assign stupidity to something that was unquestionably TPK material, because, let's face it, that's what subterfuge is all about.

I started to write a response to the bad DM thread the other day, but I found I had too much material to work with (and didn't feel like putting it all down, anyway). I really believe that as some people aspire to being bosses, and should be anything but, there are those people out there who just shouldn't be DMing.

Really.

So, I suppose I should limit encounters to 10 by 10 rooms with an orc so that I couldn't possibly force my players to use a minimum of tactical sense. Come one, that's ludicrous. The situation was well described, with the party in a clearly superior position against a fairly large number of smaller foes. I'm the bad guy when the player jumps out and figures that I'm not going to cut him down? Gimme a break. I lean very hard on the referee position. If the bad guys roll well, you die. If you do something blindingly stupid in one of my games, I refuse to reward that. The bad guys will get played to the best of their ability, not to any sort of meta-plot where the heroes always get away by the skin of their teeth.

 

[atom crash]

A friend of mine has a T-shirt that reads "DMs don't kill PCs." Then it lists all the things that DO kill PCs, including monsters of all types, pit traps, giant rats, giant hamsters, just about anything with the word "giant" in it, and finally other PCs.

Players often do make poor decisions that can lead to character death, and the ones I see the most are based on the false assumption that if they encounter something in my campaign then I've balanced the CR to their APL and they should be able to take it. One thing the players need to learn is when to run away, make a better plan, and come back later. Or just run away and don't come back at all.