Most ridiculous thing about Epic Rules
- Thread starter Crothian
- Start date
Andy_Collins
First Post
Most ridiculous Epic thing
I vote for "the fact that people are complaining before they read the rules."
But maybe that's just the curmudgeon in me.
(Frankly, I'd be a bit disappointed if people didn't find *something* ridiculous in there--it'd mean that we didn't push the boundaries far enough.)
I vote for "the fact that people are complaining before they read the rules."
But maybe that's just the curmudgeon in me.
(Frankly, I'd be a bit disappointed if people didn't find *something* ridiculous in there--it'd mean that we didn't push the boundaries far enough.)
Crothian
First Post
Re: Most ridiculous Epic thing
THis is not meant to be a complaint at all. I should have phrased the question Epic Play or Epic Levels instead of Epic Rules. High level play is more difficult for most people, but not everything about high level play. So, I was just curious what about high level play people thought to be the most outragious. At this point I think many people have a good idea about what it will be, especially with the information in the Dragon magazine.
Andy_Collins said:I vote for "the fact that people are complaining before they read the rules."
But maybe that's just the curmudgeon in me.
(Frankly, I'd be a bit disappointed if people didn't find *something* ridiculous in there--it'd mean that we didn't push the boundaries far enough.)
THis is not meant to be a complaint at all. I should have phrased the question Epic Play or Epic Levels instead of Epic Rules. High level play is more difficult for most people, but not everything about high level play. So, I was just curious what about high level play people thought to be the most outragious. At this point I think many people have a good idea about what it will be, especially with the information in the Dragon magazine.
Celebrim
Legend
The silliest thing about Epic Level rules is are the two assumptions that go into the phrase 'Epic Level'.
The first is the obvious marketing assumption that playing with godly ammounts of power is some how more 'Epic' than playing with just short of godly ammounts of power. I mean, come on, at 20th level you are already emmensely powerful, and you can already have 'epic' stories at low to mid levels.
I once calculated that a single high level first edition fighter was worth in combat 300 or so Orcs (the exact number escapes me at the moment). A single first edition party could at higher levels reasonably take on whole nations of Orcs and expect to win. This was already tremendous power, and high level characters in 3 ed. edition are only slightly less relatively powerful.
One of the problems that we noted in 1st edition play was that if the world was sufficiently dangerous to challenge a party of high level characters, then it was sufficiently dangerous that regular society could not function. What do the 1st level characters do when the name level (9th+) characters aren't arround to save thier skin? Surely we couldn't be everywhere at once? If we encounter several challenges on every voyage or journey, how could anyone of lesser level survive? How could trade possibly occur?
Ultimately we had to decide that beyond a certain critical point, the world just wasn't that challenging to you and new types of challenges had to be invented to test our resources.
To me, the hugest problem with 'Epic Level' rules (other than the cheesy name), is the assumption that 'Epic Level' challenges can coexist in the same world as regular people to whom regular challenges are quite sufficient. In dragon they presented a pernicious, reproductive, infesting 'Epic Level' monster? How is it that it hasn't exterminated the human race? If the PC's are Epic Level, don't their need to be Epic Level Orcs? Why aren't more things Epic level before they reach Epic Levels?
It might all be fine to say that this is happening out in the Outer Planes somewhere, but this doesn't seem to be the default assumption. Instead, the default assumption appears to be that 'Epic Level' is supposed to be just like regular level only 'Kewler'.
If they really took thier assumptions seriously, a real Epic Level handbook would deal in great depth with running realistic economies, handling the book keeping of nations, and running mass combat between mighty empires, because as someone who reached the 'epic levels' of 1st edition (say 15th) can attest - Epic Level characters have to deal with that sort of thing on a day to day basis. Instead, the emphasis seems to be on increasing ability to deal hp damage.
The first is the obvious marketing assumption that playing with godly ammounts of power is some how more 'Epic' than playing with just short of godly ammounts of power. I mean, come on, at 20th level you are already emmensely powerful, and you can already have 'epic' stories at low to mid levels.
I once calculated that a single high level first edition fighter was worth in combat 300 or so Orcs (the exact number escapes me at the moment). A single first edition party could at higher levels reasonably take on whole nations of Orcs and expect to win. This was already tremendous power, and high level characters in 3 ed. edition are only slightly less relatively powerful.
One of the problems that we noted in 1st edition play was that if the world was sufficiently dangerous to challenge a party of high level characters, then it was sufficiently dangerous that regular society could not function. What do the 1st level characters do when the name level (9th+) characters aren't arround to save thier skin? Surely we couldn't be everywhere at once? If we encounter several challenges on every voyage or journey, how could anyone of lesser level survive? How could trade possibly occur?
Ultimately we had to decide that beyond a certain critical point, the world just wasn't that challenging to you and new types of challenges had to be invented to test our resources.
To me, the hugest problem with 'Epic Level' rules (other than the cheesy name), is the assumption that 'Epic Level' challenges can coexist in the same world as regular people to whom regular challenges are quite sufficient. In dragon they presented a pernicious, reproductive, infesting 'Epic Level' monster? How is it that it hasn't exterminated the human race? If the PC's are Epic Level, don't their need to be Epic Level Orcs? Why aren't more things Epic level before they reach Epic Levels?
It might all be fine to say that this is happening out in the Outer Planes somewhere, but this doesn't seem to be the default assumption. Instead, the default assumption appears to be that 'Epic Level' is supposed to be just like regular level only 'Kewler'.
If they really took thier assumptions seriously, a real Epic Level handbook would deal in great depth with running realistic economies, handling the book keeping of nations, and running mass combat between mighty empires, because as someone who reached the 'epic levels' of 1st edition (say 15th) can attest - Epic Level characters have to deal with that sort of thing on a day to day basis. Instead, the emphasis seems to be on increasing ability to deal hp damage.
ColonelHardisson
What? Me Worry?
Celebrim said:
I don't know about that...I don't remember reading about Beowulf or Achilles or Cu Chulain doing all that. If anything, that would be the antithesis of Epic Level play. In my experience, characters get up into the teens as far as levels are concerned, become rulers for a while, then hit the trail again to do some very free-wheeling adventuring. Bookkeeping gets really boring when you can travel the planes and vanquish evil.
ColonelHardisson
What? Me Worry?
Celebrim said:
I always make one of two assumptions:
* There are Epic or legendary heroes already out there handling these things, and the PCs represent a "changing of the guard" when they attain Epic levels
* Heroes and Villains "rise to the occasion." That is, once an Epic level hero appears, Epic level foes appear to trouble him, and vice-versa. Like in comic books.
James McMurray
First Post
Which issue was this? I must have missed it, and I'd love to see it.
