Most ridiculous thing about Epic Rules

[shadow]

I know that a lot of people see epic level campaigns as silly and unrealistic. To me that is the reason why I love them. I would like to run games that have the feel of an epic myth. In many ancient myths, powerful heroes challenged the gods and performed many feats that could only be considered "epic".

Besides, I just think it would be cool to have a feat that would allow my character to do a "finishing move" on opponents like in Mortal Kombat!

 

[Shard O'Glase]

Re: Most ridiculous Epic thing

I vote for "the fact that people are complaining before they read the rules."

But maybe that's just the curmudgeon in me.

(Frankly, I'd be a bit disappointed if people didn't find *something* ridiculous in there--it'd mean that we didn't push the boundaries far enough.)

I haven't been keeping up in epic level stuff so I wont comment on it. But I will comment on your comment. The same types of things were said before 3rd came out, and guess what you released enough info that people especially veteran gamers could make good and solid complaints about things. I know I did, and surprise, surprise many of my complaints before it came out I still have a problem with after it came out. I have no idea if you are releasing anywhere near the same info on this as you did for 3rd ed, but if you did then people who have follwed your releases and were still unable to form a decent and fairly accurate critique would be the ridiculous ones.

 

[Shard O'Glase]

I will make one comment on one thing I heard about. A few spells that were released as epic spells were decidedly un-epic in my mind. If fighters/rogues etc will get quasi mystical to full on mystical abilities through high skills/abilities I sure hope wizards are leveling mountains and not doing some cheezy all element ball.

The one thing I hope for is that clerics get the least in this book. Sorry but they are mad overpowered in the core rules, they should get the smallest hookup especially as people start getting onto the god level playing field. The 1st rule of godhood should be never let one of your lackys get too powerful.

 

[Celebrim]

"Besides, I just think it would be cool to have a feat that would allow my character to do a "finishing move" on opponents like in Mortal Kombat!"

It never ceases to amaze me how in threads like these, how all the eloquent words I can devise to express my position are shown to be but clumsy rants by the pithy exclamations of those holding the opposite opinion.

Thank you. Without you, I could not have so well expressed what I see as wrong with the current take on Epic Level play.

 

[Xarlen]

Epic Rules R00ls!

Ahem. Sorry. I just couldn't resist a clumsy rant.

But, to show you that I can pull off more then a simple leet-speaked commentary, here goes.

First, it is suggested that, with such powerful creatures, how do normal beings exist? Well, really, that's an ecosystem problem with 3e. If you look at a Colossal dragon, who weighs about 250,000 pounds, apparently, this dragon eats a *lot*. And has had to eat quite a lot, to get such a Big Healthy Dragon. Given that, how could it possibly exist, since it could wipe a state of cattle out?

This is where You, the DM, come in. Obviously, a dragon could not eat all the cattle it needs, all the time, to survive. Thus, we use common sense, or a little creativity, whichever. Let's then say that this dragon has a slow metabolism. Like alligators, who sit in the sun while digesting their food, it could take a while for a dragon to get everything. Another likely thing is, dragons could hibernate. They eat quite a lot, at one point, then lay down... and *sleep* for a decade or so. So, now, we have less cattle dieing to feed Mr. Dragon.

In Issue #296 of Dragon, the Thorcisaid is shown, an epic monster. It's a roach like parasite, that basicly eats by draining levels and abilities. Since this is basicly drinking a host's spirit, soul, or 'energy', there's a lot of leeway on how this creature's metabolism works; how often it needs to eat, and how many people are needed to fill it. Obviously, a 15th level character is going to fill this bad boy better then a 1st level one. So, who says it has to eat an entire city? It could only need One person, or 4, or 8 a year, to fill it. Besides, it could also have a very low birth rate, since the most they're ever found in is 4-7. So, no, these wouldn't destroy a city, if a DM tooled them to.

Also, think about this: All these creatures, if they were all massed in the world, possibly could destroy the population, except for 2 factors. 1) They likely could eat other monsters. I could see three or four of these suckers taking down a dragon. 2) Other Planes. Yes. A LOT of the higher CR monsters ARE outsiders. Thus, they're likely Not Here the majority of the time. And, could very well be terrorising some other plane of existance. So, yes, they could exist.

Infact, the whole campaign could take place somewhere *other* then the material plane. I the PCs can access magic to just zip plane to plane, then likely, they're not going to stay on their birth dimension.

 

[bloodymage]

What Epic Rules?

I might be a little off base here since I haven't played or DM'ed 3e in the stratosphere yet, but why are "epic rules" even necessary? I realize that the PHB only contains stats through 20th level. So what? 1e only had stats thru 18th. Didn't stop me from progressing a F/MU to 25/23. Haven't looked at it closely, but what's to stop me from extrapolating 20th level stats out to 25th or 30th? My F/MU tussled with a demon or deity or two in her time and there weren't any "epic rules," just good ol' D&D. What's ridiculous is all the hype for a WotC money-grubbing product which appears to me to be akin to the proverbial teat on a boar hog!

 

[hong]

This is where You, the DM, come in. Obviously, a dragon could not eat all the cattle it needs, all the time, to survive. Thus, we use common sense, or a little creativity, whichever. Let's then say that this dragon has a slow metabolism. Like alligators, who sit in the sun while digesting their food, it could take a while for a dragon to get everything. Another likely thing is, dragons could hibernate. They eat quite a lot, at one point, then lay down... and *sleep* for a decade or so. So, now, we have less cattle dieing to feed Mr. Dragon.

One could also say that all this stuff happens off-stage, just like you never see normal people eating, crapping, and doing other biological things. Smaug, for instance, never had a problem finding food even after he was the only living thing left alive in the Lonely Mountain. In fact, I think it was Tolkien who said something along the lines of fantasy being like a stage show; knowing all the secrets spoils the fun. I've probably mangled that in at least six places, but you get the drift: thinking too hard about fantasy is bad.

Back to Epic level: I still don't really see the point of it, besides doubling the level cap to 40th (and probably doubling the DM's workload as well). That doesn't count as a mission statement in my eyes.

What _is_ an epic character anyway? A superhero? You're already a superhero in D&D by the time you hit 10-15th level. You can jump off cliffs, wade through hordes of mooks, fly, teleport, kill people with a touch, and raise them from the dead. Well, maybe not _all_ at once, but the point remains the same: even before you hit 20th level, you're already breaking all the typical fantasy tropes that we know from non-D&D sources.

I like to think of D&D as representing four distinct genres:

levels 1-5: Realistic, or as much as it can be when magic is around. By and large, characters are vulnerable to much the same things as the people around them, and you don't need to change the world to accomodate them.

6-10: Heroic. You can pull off those 1-in-1e6 chances (taking the One Ring into Mordor, deposing snake cults singlehandedly, etc). Most western fantasy novels, movies, etc top out at this point.

11-15: Superheroic. You can do utterly fantastic things, as mentioned above. Anime and wuxia is probably around this level, except for stuff like DBZ and Slayers.

16-20: 4-color. The troubles of one 3rd-rate planet orbiting a 4th-rate star in a 5th-rate galaxy are below you. It's time to tour the planes, baby!

So even without the ELH, you can already do funky stuff. Adding even more funky stuff doesn't seem like that big a deal.

 

[Numion]

If they really took thier assumptions seriously, a real Epic Level handbook would deal in great depth with running realistic economies, handling the book keeping of nations, and running mass combat between mighty empires, because as someone who reached the 'epic levels' of 1st edition (say 15th) can attest - Epic Level characters have to deal with that sort of thing on a day to day basis. Instead, the emphasis seems to be on increasing ability to deal hp damage.

But one of the purposes of this book is to take D&D to the next, more powerful, level. The idea of Epic D&D is that it still is D&D. Not running a country, or having that much to do with realism either.

If you think about it, how realistic is the idea of adventurers carrying HUGE amounts of cash into towns from dungeons? Could such a system work, even before Epic levels? Surely all commoners would try to gang up on monsters, if they can with a few deaths earn more than their whole village during the next 10 years.

 

[hong]

Re: What Epic Rules?

I might be a little off base here since I haven't played or DM'ed 3e in the stratosphere yet, but why are "epic rules" even necessary? I realize that the PHB only contains stats through 20th level. So what? 1e only had stats thru 18th. Didn't stop me from progressing a F/MU to 25/23. Haven't looked at it closely, but what's to stop me from extrapolating 20th level stats out to 25th or 30th?

The trouble is that the linear progression of a lot of things in 3E results in an ever-widening gap between different characters, as you boost the levels. For example, take a wizard (BAB = level x1/2) and a fighter (BAB = level). If you extrapolate to 40th level, a wizard would have a BAB of +20, and a fighter of +40. Against a creature with AC 41, the fighter hits all the time (except on a natural 1) and the wizard never hits (except on a natural 20). There are complicating factors like stats, magic, blah blah, but the point remains the same.

Or consider saves. The same wizard would have a Will save of +22, and the fighter +13. After adding in stats, magic, blah blah, it's quite possible to have the wizard easily making all his saves, while the fighter gets held, dominated, etc in battle after battle.

This problem already exists to some extent below 20th level, but it just gets worse if you extrapolate. The rules in the ELH where everyone shares the same attack and save progression are, I would assume, an attempt to reduce the severity of this problem.

 

[kreynolds]

It never ceases to amaze me how in threads like these, how all the eloquent words I can devise to express my position are shown to be but clumsy rants by the pithy exclamations of those holding the opposite opinion.

Eloquent? That's not the word I was thinking of.