Most ridiculous thing about Epic Rules

[Nightfall]

Well maybe then something will come along from Malhavoc that will have what you're looking for. After all, it's a small press and it doesn't have to sell that well for S&SS to care. They make enough off Ravenloft, Scarred Lands and even Necromancer Games.

 

[James McMurray]

rounser: nah, it wasn't too sincere, but it also wasn't meant hatefully. I happen to like quite a bit of what WotC has put out lately. I just wish they's stop printing FR stuff and put more of their authors to work on things I'll use. But then again, I'm not complaining, they have to stay in business.

There are a few non-linear adventures available for 3E. Of Sound Mind is a good example.

Unfortunately, the sheer dauntingness of it makes it near impossible to get one ready enough to publish. Peoples' groups are just too divergent.

Hook us all up and make one for us.

 

[rounser]

Unfortunately, the sheer dauntingness of it makes it near impossible to get one ready enough to publish. Peoples' groups are just too divergent.

Well, let me clarify: When I say "non-linear, non-railroad", I actually mean "hybrid non-railroad/railroad". Totally non-linear campaigning requires complete improvisation, and almost by definition doesn't suit.

For instance, it is possible to provide a bunch of adventures with hooks and locations which PCs can choose from at will, tie some of them to an overall story arc, and semi-railroad the events leading up to the conclusion of the campaign and accompanying story arc as you tie up loose threads. The result is a campaign with meaningful player choice of what to do and where to go at low and mid levels, and a "foiling the villain" series of railroaded conclusion-to-the-story-arc adventures at high levels. And...I think it can be done in such a way that even the most divergent groups will eventually stumble back towards the story arc plot thread in time for the loose-thread-tying up.

Yes, this can be done with a bunch of adapted little adventures, some of which have been honed to tie in to story arc and setting detail, plus a DM-specially-designed series of story-arc conclusion adventures to make for a campaign climax. I've done this before, minus the story arc and conclusion adventures. Why we don't see it done in cohesive, published form is a bit of a puzzle. I think, perhaps, that designers are intimidated by it, or the publishers don't recognise that models such as the above can exist (or see them as impractical, too high in page count or "pie in the sky"). As the DMG points out, dungeons can effectively be used as a design crutch to limit player options, and the Adventure Path series railroads campaign structure itself in order to retain control.

I suppose that what I'm implying is that railroad adventure series and megadungeons constitute crutches for lazy campaign design...

Hook us all up and make one for us.

Heh. How does the song go? "If you want something done, then do it your-self..."

 

[Nightfall]

I prefer to think of it more like "It's not bragging if you can back it up" So just think of it that way.

 

[rounser]

I prefer to think of it more like "It's not bragging if you can back it up" So just think of it that way.

Nightfall, I'm not saying that I can necessarily design such a thing and have it be any good, but that there is the potential for it that I can see as a consumer. I don't see the correlation between seeing the potential for a product type and wanting to be able to purchase it and bragging that I could do better.

I do, as a gamer and with my limited game design assumptions, recognise that making a megadungeon is perhaps easier than what I describe. I am not bragging that I could do better, therefore "put up or shut up" doesn't really apply, eh?

 

[Nightfall]

Rouncer,

I'm not trying to be offensive or make you upset. But you are obvious upset at the fact there aren't enough modules written in the way YOU and you feel others would like. Therefore, it stands to reason that, while you may not be ABLE to write the best one ever, you could write one. Part of the charm of being "first" is trying it out.

I'm not saying "Put up or shut up". What I AM suggesting is, if you see a need and feel you can do it, go for it. I guess while I see a need, I'm just waiting to see what comes around the corner from guys like Atlas, Necromancer Games and others.

 

[rounser]

I'm not trying to be offensive or make you upset. But you are obvious upset at the fact there aren't enough modules written in the way YOU and you feel others would like. Therefore, it stands to reason that, while you may not be ABLE to write the best one ever, you could write one. Part of the charm of being "first" is trying it out.

I'm not saying "Put up or shut up". What I AM suggesting is, if you see a need and feel you can do it, go for it. I guess while I see a need, I'm just waiting to see what comes around the corner from guys like Atlas, Necromancer Games and others.

Although I see where you're coming from, I'm not following your reasoning to your conclusions here, Nightfall.

From what you're arguing, as a gamer, I shouldn't ask for anything I'm not prepared to design myself, and just buy what is produced or nothing. Quite frankly: What?

My comments on this thread are a test of my reasoning versus objections from other gamers such as yourself as to what matters in a product, of my taste as a consumer of gaming products, and a request to publishers that do exist for a certain kind of material, and an attempt to point out certain needs that I do not see being met which may well represent the D&D gaming community at large. It sounds sort of awkward spelled out like that, but there you go!

My reasoning for posting this is also somewhat out of incredulity as to their absence from the marketplace - why are all big published D&D campaign adventures pretty much either railroads or megadungeons or both? I understand why WotC publishes the "blue chip" hardbacks such as MoP and D&Dg, but the focus on megadungeons and railroading in campaign modules to the exclusion of the alternatives mentioned is rather odd, IMO. Maybe City of the Spider Queen will prove me very wrong indeed, but it's not looking like it - given it's an underdark setting...

 

[hong]

Dear Rounser:

Shut up already.

 

[rounser]

Back in your box, Hong.

 

[Nightfall]

Rounser,

I think you're not following me...I think your on the right interstate but you're going the opposite way.

1. I'm not saying "Accept what's handed to you" What I AM Saying is, you make a valid point BUT at the moment, you feel that it won't happen. Thus I say "TAKE the initative!" The difference between living life and having one is affecting change. You, as a gamer, have RPGs as something that's trying to help keep you active and productive in your life. As a gamer, if something isn't happening the way you want, then MAKE the change. You can gripe until you're blue in the face BUT if you don't try to HELP the change, you're better of just being another face in the crowd.

2. I think you make a fine point about what you see as a need. I do agree it does it exist. But if you only gripe about, meaning you don't take a proactive stance, you're only encouraging others to ignore you. Why do you think the majority of electronic media is such a blip to everyone else? Because in the real world, what matters ARE results. Tangible, proof positive results. Best way to effect change in that way is make something that HAS those results. Why do you think there are two portable cities made for generic campaigns, like Bluffside and Freeport? Because they SOLD well and people could judge their results.

I hope that helps to explain MY position too.