Most ridiculous thing about Epic Rules

[James McMurray]

19th level characters should be too busy considering the fate of nations to do the same without good reason.

Unless of course they are the types of people who could care less about the fates of nations. I could easily see Indiana Jones at 20th level heading off to the Abyss to steal the fabled Diamond of BargleBagrle from its (hit dice advanced, classed) Pit fiend keeper and his hordes of slavering devils.

 

[Nightfall]

Well even though many would say "What?! Why are you getting involved?!" I think I'll jump in. What I have to say about the epic level handbook is quite simple really. I want it because I want the OPTION to exist. d20 and indeed 3rd edition itself SHOULD be about OPTIONS!

I don't want some dm to Tell me "No you can't" unless he has a solid reason like "This world doesn't have that." I can deal with that. I come from the same lines as everyone else. Also I don't see a problem with powerful PCs dungeon crawling their lives away. You know what they say, live by the sword, you die by it.

For my own favorite campaign setting, well in a world were gods are active and indeed forces like the Titans exist, why should there exist the option of epic level power as opposed to deifying a PC. (Course I still think my conversions of the SL Gods will be world shattering but that's just me! ) That said, I want to see what guys like PC have to say and of course my mate Krusty since he IS the god/epic level man. Believe me it's thanks to him I have a healthy respect for ANY Slacerian and/or other creatures he might toss around. I'd like to see a Force Dragon take on something like epic level Dragon Mystic Slacerian Great Wyrm. Now THAT would be interesting!

So for all you people out there that are booing and hissing about "We want realism!" I say, "stand outside in the rain for while" This is game folks, one I enjoy playing and being around. It's certainly more invigorating than some other things people do, like just partying, doing drugs (course gamers aren't immune I know but hey does make for fun times..erhm maybe! , or just trying to find new ways to kill off boredom, loneliness and/or isolationism. Give me gaming any day over the way the human races tries to distract itself. And GIVE ME an EPIC LEVEL PENUMBRAL LORD! Go Dar'Tan!

 

[rounser]

I want it because I want the OPTION to exist. d20 and indeed 3rd edition itself SHOULD be about OPTIONS!

I don't think anyone's denying that. There should be more to WotC's publishing strategy than just OPTIONS, though - like stuff that actually saves DMs work...the Book of Challenges is a good example of such a product, as are the usable locations in FR books - but they are the exception rather than the rule. They are drowned out in favour of your OPTIONS. I'd prefer less OPTIONS about gods and planes and psionics and epic levels if it meant more stuff that would save me work as a DM - but WotC knows what sells, and my tastes are in the minority.

 

[Nightfall]

Rouncer,


The work of a Dm is never done. Besides, if it would save you work, I'll give you my copy of the SLCS. That alone will make you feel better. Not to mention Wilderness and Wastelands. Believe me, I'd rather work at my world than not work at all. I tried that with 2nd edition. Got REALLY dull.

I do understand your gripe BUT understand mine. I lived in a 2nd edition world where: dwarves were lucky to cast spells IF they were clerics. Paladins were always humans. Rangers never deviated from goodness. And most of all, Druids and clerics seemed interchangeable.

 

[James McMurray]

There should be more to WotC's publishing strategy than just OPTIONS, though - like stuff that actually saves DMs work

The ELH saves all those DMs who want to run campaigns past 20th level tons of work.

New setting books save DMs the trouble of developing their own worlds.

New class books save DMs the trouble of creating their own new spells, magic items, prestige classes, etc.

New books about planes, gods, and psionics save those DMs who want something different from the PHB the trouble of creating it themselves.

The Book of Challenges itself those DMs who want to use puzzles or traps the trouble of creating themselves and determining the CR of them.

What else do you want? Every book WotC puts out has saved DMs trouble. I'm sorry they don't all save you trouble, but somehow I doubt you are enough to keep WotC in business.

 

[rounser]

The work of a Dm is never done.

And that's a problem with the RPG culture, IMO. CRPGs are whittling away at the edges of our hobby because you can sit down and play them with zero preparation. There just aren't enough resources out there to make DMing a campaign easier, IMO - and I don't mean crunchy bits or setting detail when I say that (unless it's low level "encounter level" setting detail, like some of the recent city books from some d20 publishers).

I'm not talking about books of advice, either. Where are the campaign modules? Nowhere, unless you count megadungeons. Why can't I pick up a quality non-megadungeon campaign from the store? I don't know - because they don't sell as well as options hardbacks? Because they're hard to write unless restricted in scope to a dungeon? My point is, it doesn't have to be that way - D&D could have these resources....but instead we're seeing options hardbacks, splatbooks and cap systems.

Besides, if it would save you work, I'll give you my copy of the SLCS. That alone will make you feel better. Not to mention Wilderness and Wastelands. Believe me, I'd rather work at my world than not work at all. I tried that with 2nd edition. Got REALLY dull.

Nightfall, you may not mean this (so please don't take it the wrong way), but the point I'd like to make to some of what you're implying is:

Worldbuilding != Campaign building.

It seems to me that a lot of DMs are more into worldbuilding than gaming - no wonder so many of TSR's settings sold poorly. The difference between setting building and campaign building is IMO marked, but rarely made, it seems. Yes, a detailed world can add a lot to the campaign (especially in terms of atmosphere and verisimilitude), but even a detailed world needs adventures and a campaign framework for the PCs to act within - and that's a whole 'nother ballpark of work (although a world can suggest adventures/plotlines etc.). It takes work to turn a setting into a campaign, and I've found in the past that you can more or less dispose of the setting, default to a sparse "generic D&D world" which serves the purposes of your adventure needs (ruined monaestery here, haunted woods there, city doomed to burn down yonder - each location tied to an adventure or two), and simply focus on the campaign and game needs....and never really miss the setting.

I'm of the opinion that you don't need much world to run D&D. Look at Monte Cooks' Ptolus campaign for evidence - and by limiting the scope of your worldbuilding, quality can be stressed over quantity. But my argument is getting sidetracked....again, WotC is milking the big gun books which will sell well, however that doesn't meet my wants list. Whinge whinge.

 

[James McMurray]

Where are the campaign modules?

There isn't much work involved in grabbing several smaller modules and interjecting threads of cohesiveness into them. Tjhat's what I've had to do with my campaign. I toowould love a super campaign, but its too hard to create in a general enough manner that will sell without restricting it greatly.

 

[Nightfall]

Rounser,

Maybe it's just me, but I don't see why it has to BE easy for a Dm. Part of the fun IS the challenge. Yes the Book of Chanlleges and indeed many other d20 products can help MAKE a Dm's life easier.
But for those people that enjoy CRPGs, well I enjoy them but they can't replace the FUN I feel when I can invest some of myself or a piece of me into a campaign that I know can work.

Example: Ratmen/Slitheren in the campaign world. They are powerful and also a mystery in the world of the Scarred Lands. I've tried VERY hard to convince my players to give this a whirl. They won't because they are scared. (Which is a mixed blessing to me.) But I did manage to convince one of my friends/players to make one. Now admittedly I would have liked him to use something a little less esoteric, but with the Unseeing I can handle this JUST fine. Not to mention plot out possible uses for his character as a basis for Rping, like being accussed of helping other Ratmen, or even aiding titanspawn in the area. Regardless, I don't think I could do this with just a plain old half orc, even though orcs do exist.

As for you complain about "megadungeons" I will agree that there are a lot around. Even though I LIKE them, there doesn't need to be such a proliferation. If helps any, try looking at the Serpent Amphora free preview. Maybe THAT would be more to your liking. I know that and/or The Enigma of the Arcanexu MIGHT appeal more to you.

As for my on opnions rounser, well I freely admit, they are just my opinions. I certainly agree with you about the fact that you and I can disgree about how to run things. I guess I'm of the opinion that if you HAVE atmophere, if you have interest and different things that what players are used to, THEN you spark a campaign.
You claim that genericness like a haunted monstary are fine even in a world that doesn't need gods or information about them. But what about things like "If I pray to my god will he/she hear me? What will he do about that?" Or "I want to know why this monstary became haunted" Generic worlds are fine that way but I think if you leave out those details THEN you tend to run aground REAL fast. The "work" you talk about in a setting, I think, depends on the degree on how hard you put some effort into it. You only get so much fun out a campaign IF you only do the mininmun work.

So in the end rouncer, while I think we disagree about the roles and the needs of the Dms, I think we can both agree about two major issues:

1. The need for more EVENT based modules in the worlds of D&D and d20.

2. The need for a Dm to decrease some of the prep-time it takes as well as creating the atmosphere.

 

[Corinth]

Of course, this also opens opportunities for third parties to make some mad bank (relatively speaking) by producing GM aides that do make the work easier. For me, it's maps. For others, it's this or that thing. There are not nearly enough aides, either in goods or services, to exhaust this end of the market.

 

[rounser]

The ELH saves all those DMs who want to run campaigns past 20th level tons of work.

Rules is rules. You can't run a D&D game off of rules alone - but you are correct, the game needs them.

New setting books save DMs the trouble of developing their own worlds.

See post above.

New class books save DMs the trouble of creating their own new spells, magic items, prestige classes, etc.

More crunchy bits are optional, and arguably superfluous to game quality once you reach a certain critical mass, IMO. Of course, some of us can never get enough. As with the Epic Rules, you still need to knit a game out of them - and that's the preparation I'm referring to that is not being aided with much.

New books about planes, gods, and psionics save those DMs who want something different from the PHB the trouble of creating it themselves.

Again, rules is rules. Yes, they deserve to exist - and would be missed by some of us in their absence - but they're not the kind of preparation timesaving I'm referring to, and are easily ignored as superfluous to your levels 1-20, prime material based, gods-stay-in-the-sky campaign which most of us seem to end up running anyway...

The Book of Challenges itself those DMs who want to use puzzles or traps the trouble of creating themselves and determining the CR of them.

Yes. This is the kind of thing I'm referring to that can be directly applied to make a game. It's not rules or setting material - it's something that saves you preparation of the actual game itself.

What else do you want? Every book WotC puts out has saved DMs trouble.

Off the shelf, non-megadungeon, non-railroad campaigns, not setting material or more rules.

I'm sorry they don't all save you trouble, but somehow I doubt you are enough to keep WotC in business.

I somehow doubt your "sorry" is sincere, given the facetiousness of the second part of your sentence. I didn't state that they're likely to change their publishing behaviour until gamers change their buying behaviour - so, as you say, game set match to you options folk.