Most ridiculous thing about Epic Rules

[James McMurray]

[Shameless Plus]

Speaking of Tomb of Horrors, read my Story Hour! (link in the sig). It has plenty of examples of how high level play can take place in a dungeon, still be challenging, and still have role-playing as well.

[/Shameless Plug]

I personally can't wait for the ELH, because my group is nearing that level quickly. I want it so that our campaign can continue. They will soon have a kingdom (if they survive) and an army to protect it. Wars will rage, and yet there will still be dungeon crawls to go on. Of course, until those dungeon crawls reach the Assassin's guild stronghold, or the Abyss, they'll be extremely easy for my party. Then again, I think a high-level group should get to flex their muscles every so often.

 

[LightPhoenix]

Getting somewhat back on track, my feelings on the matter echo someone elses - why didn't they use the already viable system they already had? Why change things so much?

Some of it I understand - placing a cap on 5 attacks (as seen in previews) for instance, makes things much less cumbersome. There's no reason they have to do away with class-based attack bonuses though! Epic spells make a certain amount of sense to me, even if the ones that have been published are rather silly.

A lot of it I don't understand though, and when the ELH comes out I'll probably pick it up and convert to however I may decide to do things.

 

[El Ravager]

I have to go with Celebrim on this one.

I am tired of this 'whatever makes you happy is okay' additude that seems to be so pervasive today. When you get down to it, its not like the qualities that Celebrim advocated were all that radical. I am sorry but any game that includes

things like creativity, characterization, originality, believablity, play balance, thought provoking challenges, world building, backstory, mythos and mythic references, theme, plot, atmosphere, and so forth

is better than one that doesn't. I know, I should not have used the 'B' word - someone might think that a judgement was being made. Heaven forbid.


What Celebrim said didn't, at least to me, exclude hack and slash gaming at all. Such a game can certainly be creative, and include thought provoking challenges, etc. To me, books like the Epic Level Handbook don't really do much to add those elements, it just makes the numbers bigger. Thats not to say that there is no place for the book. To me, books like the ELH or MotP and what not merely change the flavor of the elements rather than really add to them. Those books are fine, but it seems to be the sole focus of what is provided by WotC rather than feeding us things that help on the level Cerebrim described like a book on structuring campaings and adventures would.

Thats my thoughts on the matter anyway.

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El Rav

 

[Tewligan]

I can't honestly believe that Monte is perfectly happy with these sorts of players at his table. I think Monte lives in a happy world where everyone is basically a mature gamer.

I don't.

I live in a world where it seems about half of all gamers of any age are nearly autistic and would be perfectly happy all night long rolling a die and announcing how much damage they did, if it was far more than what ever they were fighting was doing to them. As long as it makes them happy, it's ok, right?

I live in a world where a group of gamers who are 20+ have no problems overcoming encounters so long as I restrict them to 'You see a monster with a pie.' But the minute I make them a little bit more complex, like hiding either the monster or the pie, or making them choose a door to find a monster or a pie, or talk the monster into sharing the pie, they fall apart. Here are people with like 10 years of experience rolling dice, and almost no experience doing anything like dungeon crawling or role playing.

And what a nightmarish world you live in, Celebrim. Your world is apparently also very melodramatic.

You're right, Monte probably wouldn't want that kind of player at his table. Therefore, he probably doesn't play with them. You said that these "nearly autistic" gamers (nice, BTW) would be happy just rolling dice and doing damage. If they're happy, why shouldn't they? Not everyone is as committed to D&D as are the gamers who regularly read and post to gaming message boards. Some people are happy to just chuck dice until they "kill" a set of numbers. They don't want detailed cities, elaborate ecosystems, or lovingly developed cultures. They want to kill a dragon, Thor, or any other badass they can match stats against. I don't play like that, you don't play like that, and I doubt that anyone who reads this board with any regularity plays that way. However, since those people a) have no effect on my game and b) are enjoying themselves, then more power to them. The game I play in would probably bore them to tears - I just hope they aren't on some message board somewhere badmouthing me.

EDIT: Oops, I took a bit of a smartass tone at the beginning of my post. Sorry - it was late and I was tired and cranky from a long weekend of gaming at Origins (oooh, poor me!) Anyway, apologies to Celebrim - athough you are, of course, still wrong.
(Please note that I NEVER use smilies - you should consider yourself special, Celebrim.)

 

[Piratecat]

Don't get personal, folks. You know better than that.

Interestingly, my campaign seems ideally suited to take advantage of some of the things in the Epic Level Handbook. PC levels range from 16th to 19th. I've been worried about what to do next. The timing will be perfect.

Will I adopt everything in the book as written? No, of course not. But it's going to be wonderful at helping maintain interesting combats, challenges and fun encounters. I can live with that.

 

[El Ravager]

If they're happy, why shouldn't they? Not everyone is as committed to D&D as are the gamers who regularly read and post to gaming message boards. Some people are happy to just chuck dice until they "kill" a set of numbers. They don't want detailed cities, elaborate ecosystems, or lovingly developed cultures. They want to kill a dragon, Thor, or any other badass they can match stats against. I don't play like that, you don't play like that, and I doubt that anyone who reads this board with any regularity plays that way. However, since those people a) have no effect on my game and b) are enjoying themselves, then more power to them. The game I play in would probably bore them to tears - I just hope they aren't on some message board somewhere badmouthing me.

It is true that if people would like to play like that, then they have every right to. It does, however, effect me if the books WotC chooses to publish caters to that style of play. Furthermore, if the books cater to that style of play then that is the way new people to the hobby will tend to play which, IMO, hurts the hobby. That style of play leads away from creativity and imagination which is what the game is all about. Its fine with me if someone has fun playing a game that lacks that but that does not mean that the game is as good as one that is creative and imaginitive.

I truely hope that the upcoming BoVD will be more than just prestige classes, feats and descriptions of icky stuff. Hopefully it will give tips and ideas on making villians with motivations and full personalities as well as ideas on structuring adventures and campaigns around them. Possibly the ELH will more than numbers, crunchy bits and rules for kewl powers and will provide DMs with ideas to create adventures for these powerful heroes. Something with more substance than "here are new bad things that epic levels will enable your PCs to be powerful enough to Hack".

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El Rav

 

[Celtavian]

Epic Characters should not be involved in daily activities

Epic characters should only be run in dire circumstances. They should spend a great deal of their time in seclusion or roleplaying. Time should flow differently for them. For example, as a DM of epic level characters, you should have no trouble telling your characters they have had no real challenges for years. Then spring the adventure on them as a series of events leading up to an epic level challenge.

You shouldn't be dungeon delving still as an epic level character or just adventuring. Epic level characters should be guiding lower level characters, running kingdoms or organizations, researching, and the like. They probably enjoy their seclusion because lesser people are probably always trying to get them to join them for some plot or some reason to further their power.

Epic DM's should be focusing alot on roleplaying and story. The threats should challenge an epic level character, but also tell a great story in the process. When they do face down the final enemy, it will require all their resources to do so.

I don't think that 6th to 10th level is the level of storybook heroes. Lord of the Rings is a prime example. Aragorn had to be at least a 20th lvl Ranger or multi-class fighter ranger. Boromir was at least a 20 th lvl fighter. Gandalf had to be a celestial being with unknown powers of wizardry. Even the hobbits probably ended up being lvl 6 or so warriors. Gimli and Legolas were probably around lvl 15 or so, maybe higher.

The big difference in those books is that world was different and monsters were stronger. Middle Earth was very low magic. None of the characters save Frodo had powerful magic armor. The orcs weren't just regular 1 hd orcs, but probably varied. Even a lvl 20 fighter can fall to a horde of orcs in this game if they overrun him, which is most likely what they would do if he was killing too many of them. If you wanted to, you could run a low magic D and D campaign with greater variation in the monsters to capture the feel or Lord of the Rings.

I can't really say what I think is most ridiculous until I see the book.

 

[Piratecat]

Re: Epic Characters should not be involved in daily activities

Epic characters should only be run in dire circumstances. They should spend a great deal of their time in seclusion or roleplaying. Time should flow differently for them. For example, as a DM of epic level characters, you should have no trouble telling your characters they have had no real challenges for years. Then spring the adventure on them as a series of events leading up to an epic level challenge.

You shouldn't be dungeon delving still as an epic level character or just adventuring. Epic level characters should be guiding lower level characters, running kingdoms or organizations, researching, and the like. They probably enjoy their seclusion because lesser people are probably always trying to get them to join them for some plot or some reason to further their power.

Welcome to the boards! But boy, I couldn't disagree with you more. I inherently dislike someone telling me that the PCs in my game "shouldn't" be dungeon delving at their level. Why in the world not? If I as a DM can make it fun and challenging, I see no reason not to design adventures that the players enjoy.

To be honest, a campaign where the players sit around and guide lower level characters sounds boring. Maybe that's just me, though.

I agree about roleplaying and story, though. High level games need to depend upon things that can't be slain with a sword - politics, moral dilemmas, difficult choices.

 

[James McMurray]

I'm not usually one for "me too" posts, but in this case I'll make an exception.

In regards to what Piratecat said: me too!

 

[Ridley's Cohort]

Re: Re: Epic Characters should not be involved in daily activities

Welcome to the boards! But boy, I couldn't disagree with you more. I inherently dislike someone telling me that the PCs in my game "shouldn't" be dungeon delving at their level. Why in the world not? If I as a DM can make it fun and challenging, I see no reason not to design adventures that the players enjoy.

Methinks his point is that everything you bother to play out that involves an epic level character should have a big picture reason. That doesn't necessarily exclude dungeons. But it does suggest it might better to narrate the next couple quiet years until the next World Shaking Problem appears.

5th level characters may crawl into a cave just because it is there. 19th level characters should be too busy considering the fate of nations to do the same without good reason.