Moving to C&C... need help

[jdrakeh]

A good way to describe skills and feats in C&C.

This is a deliberately misleading way to describe such things.

Feats: everyone "has" them. Meaning the "action type feats" like Cleave, Great Cleave, Power Attack, MAximize spell (obviously only if your a spellcaster), etc....

There are no feats in C&C. Nobody has them. Anybody can attempt to perform an action with an attribute check (the SIEGE check). Just like AD&D or other pre-feat editions of D&D. Just like 99% of all attribute-based RPGs on the market. This is not the same thing as everybody having feats.

Skills are "built into" the SIEGE Engine and the class descriptions. When they select Primes they are essentially deciding not only what do they want extra good saves against (saves are based on each of your stats) they are also deciding what skills related to that stat they are extra good in (extra good being a +6 bonus, effectively).

What skills do their characters have? First, what is spelled out in their class descriptions. Second, whatever makes sense to you and your players, or by using whatever method you wish to establish a "list" to keep things clear. For instance I base my skills on 3E rules. Others have their players write a background and have any skills that they can explain having in their background, etc...

C&C has no skills by default. Primes allow you to choose ONLY what genralized physical aspects a character possesses prowess in. For example, if you select DEX as a prime, you're better at ALL Dex-related action. If you want to custom tailor aptitude to specific skills you need to house rule the system.

 

[tankschmidt]

TC&C has no skills by default. Primes allow you to choose ONLY what genralized physical aspects a character possesses prowess in. For example, if you select DEX as a prime, you're better at ALL Dex-related action. If you want to custom tailor aptitude to specific skills you need to house rule the system.

That's not exactly true. Choosing dexterity as a prime does not increase your armor class or your ability to shoot a bow. It merely gives you a bonus to dexterity-related saves and ability checks. In play, it turns out to be pretty similar to having dexterity-based skills as class skills and nonprimed skills as cross-class. And you'll have greater success pulling off dexterity-based feats.

I certainly agree with you that there are no feats in C&C. But describing the SIEGE engine as able to emulate feats is a good way to describe it to someone coming from a D&D 3.x background. In fact, that's how I described it to my players. Soon enough it will click for them that the SIEGE engine is not limited to the list of feats, and they'll realize that they can try to pull off any cool moves they want.

 

[jdrakeh]

It merely gives you a bonus to dexterity-related saves and ability checks.

That's true. Thank you for clarifying.

In play, it turns out to be pretty similar to having dexterity-based skills as class skills and nonprimed skills as cross-class.

I did not find this to be the case. Skills allow you to differentiate between very specific learned aptitudes. C&C provides no mechanical support for this. In C&C a player can only differentiate between broad physical or mental attributes. There simply are NOT any rules for actual skills by design. Saying otherwise is a misrepresentation, plain and simple.

But describing the SIEGE engine as able to emulate feats is a good way to describe it to someone coming from a D&D 3.x background.

Not really. Feats exist for much the same reason that skills do in D&D 3x -- to provide players with another variable to define a mechanically unique character by quantifying very specific types of action. Again, C&C provides no mechanical support for this. Hence the distinction between "Everybody has feats" and "Nobody has feats" -- in C&C NOBODY HAS FEATS. Ironically, in D&D 3x, everybody has feats.

The problem with saying that C&C lets you emulate these features of D&D 3x is that it doesn't. Not in terms of scope, anyhow. It will let characters attempt feat-like actions and skill-like actions with a roll -- it does not, however, allow a character to place any sort of mechanical emphasis on specific skills or actions, just general physical or mental attributes. Again, just like all pre-3x editions of D&D.

 

[Ourph]

I'd say this is a common misconception about C&C, and if you're switching to it, be wary.

Unlike more rules-heavy games, just because it isn't written on your character sheet doesn't mean you can't do it.

I don't think it's a misconception at all. If something IS written on your character sheet, you know you can do it. In C&C, your ability to perform a Cleave, for example, is entirely dependent on whether the GM is willing to allow it. C&C no more allows players to make use of a Cleave-like ability than Call of Cthulhu allows players to build spaceships. Both are possible based on GM intervention, but neither is a core, standardized part of the game rules that a player can depend on being present in all or even most games.

 

[tankschmidt]

I did not find this to be the case. Skills allow you to differentiate between very specific learned aptitudes. C&C provides no mechanical support for this. In C&C a player can only differentiate between broad physical or mental attributes. There simply are NOT any rules for actual skills by design. Saying otherwise is a misrepresentation, plain and simple.

Whoa, whoa, whoa. No one is trying to misrepresent what C&C is and is not. C&C has the SIEGE engine, which allows you to pick what sorts of physical or mental training your character has through the selection of primes. C&C does not have any sort of micromanaging what skill points go into what skill at each level. If that's what you mean by "actual skills," then you are correct in that that system does not exist within the books. In essense, when you level you get a little better at everything you do - everything that is not a class ability for someone else.

Not really. Feats exist for much the same reason that skills do in D&D 3x -- to provide players with another variable to define a mechanically unique character by quantifying very specific types of action. Again, C&C provides no mechanical support for this. Hence the distinction between "Everybody has feats" and "Nobody has feats" -- in C&C NOBODY HAS FEATS. Ironically, in D&D 3x, everybody has feats.

The problem with saying that C&C lets you emulate these features of D&D 3x is that it doesn't. Not in terms of scope, anyhow. It will let characters attempt feat-like actions and skill-like actions with a roll -- it does not, however, allow a character to place any sort of mechanical emphasis on specific skills or actions, just general physical or mental attributes. Again, just like all pre-3x editions of D&D.

If having a feat means having some mechanical and unique definition on your character sheet, then you are right; C&C has no feats. If having a feat gives your character the ability to pull off a cool move, then C&C has all feats. We're just arguing minutia here.

I don't think it's a misconception at all. If something IS written on your character sheet, you know you can do it. In C&C, your ability to perform a Cleave, for example, is entirely dependent on whether the GM is willing to allow it. C&C no more allows players to make use of a Cleave-like ability than Call of Cthulhu allows players to build spaceships. Both are possible based on GM intervention, but neither is a core, standardized part of the game rules that a player can depend on being present in all or even most games.

Yeah, C&C just plain doesn't work like that. Pretty cool, huh?

 

[CCH_LLC]

While I am sure the C&C is a great system, perhaps you are better off testing whether you and your parties enjoy it by running a short campaign in it from scratch before you go to the trouble of converting everything in your existing campaigns to it. If it turns out you like it then you can make it fit your settings if it doesn't work for you, or your groups then you haven't spent several hours wedging greyhawk and ebberon into that engine.

 

[thedungeondelver]

I would point out that if you're considering making the move to CASTLES & CRUSADES, you should also consider picking up the Yggsburgh modules THE CITADEL as well as TEETH OF THE BARKASH NOUR - both are essentially Greyhawk (the latter coming from Gary's campaign notes - trust me on this one).

I really, really highly recommend these. I have very direct knowledge of how cool they are! (Go ahead, ask me! )

 

[Ourph]

Yeah, C&C just plain doesn't work like that. Pretty cool, huh?

In some ways, yes, a rules lite system can be pretty cool and for the most part, I actually prefer rules lite systems. But misrepresenting C&C as "having all feats available for all characters" is far from cool. Rules lite systems have lots of strengths, but claiming that they provide an infinite number of tactical and mechanical choices simply because they do not actively exclude any of those choices is disingenuous at best.

If you believe that the difference between "having a feat" and "possibly being able to perform certain feat-like actions IF the GM allows those types of actions in his game and believes it is appropriate for your character to perform such an action at the time you would like to attempt it" is a matter of minutiae, then I think we have very different understandings of the word "minutiae".

 

[Jefe Bergenstein]

Whoa, whoa, whoa. No one is trying to misrepresent what C&C is and is not. C&C has the SIEGE engine, which allows you to pick what sorts of physical or mental training your character has through the selection of primes.

And all characters with the same primes are equally good at the same prime related abilities. Whereas with skills, someone who is good at one Strength related activity might not be as trained at another Strength related activity. C&C assumes that all agile guys are equally adept at picking locks, sneaking, and tumbling.

If having a feat means having some mechanical and unique definition on your character sheet, then you are right; C&C has no feats. If having a feat gives your character the ability to pull off a cool move, then C&C has all feats. We're just arguing minutia here.



Yeah, C&C just plain doesn't work like that. Pretty cool, huh?

How DOES it work? I want to run up and attack everyone in a circle around me (whirlwind). How do I do that in C&C? I want to double my crit chances with a particular weapon (improved critical). How do I do that?

 

[Treebore]

What if I've taken Craft Wand, Craft Ring, and Craft Wondrous item? How does the SIEGE engine replace those?

By going back to requiring a mage simply be of a level and have the enchant item spell, etc... So no feat needed. Just need to achieve level "X". Plus if you don't like the levels spelled out in the M&T you can make up your own. Scuh as scrolls: level 1, potions: level 3, miscellaneous items level 5. Wands level 5, stave and rods level 12. IE more or lesss like 3E has it. Just make them automatic abilities that the class gains instead of being limited to choosing feats.