MP2: Cunning Sneak/Stealth questions

[Alomir]

I'm going to bet that these questions are a surprise to no one...

(1) Several new rogue powers in Martial Power 2 have an effect after the attack that is some flavor of "You shift (some number) of squares, and you can make a Stealth check to become hidden".

Question: does this override the normal Becoming Hidden rules? ('You can make a stealth check against an enemy only if you have superior cover or total concealment')

- If it doesn't, this effect seems... less than useful.
- If it does, I have a follow-on question - what about the 'Remaining Hidden' rules? ('If you no longer have cover or concealment against an enemy, you don't remain hidden from that enemy')

(2) Other after-the-attack effects:
* If you are hidden when you attack, you can make a Stealth check to remain hidden
* You do not expend this power if you were hidden from the target when you made the attack

Question: This may be semantics, but should I read that as "hidden BEFORE you attacked" instead of "hidden WHEN you attacked", as attacking itself makes you lose your hidden status?

(3) Question: is this going to be a logistics nightmare to play out? (Sorry, that's an opinion question, not strictly a rules question)

- A

 

[SabreCat]

(1) I would read it as requiring the normal Becoming Hidden rules. You attack, then duck back out of sight and make your Stealth check. If you've got an Action Point, you can make another attack from hiding maybe... then use your move action to go hide again, that sort of thing. ^.^

(2) "Hidden when you attacked" is legit. You don't become unhidden until after the action that caused you to lose the hidden status.

 

[Piratecat]

I'll be interested in the consensus. Alomir is converting his brawny rogue in my game to a sneaky one! Which actually means I'll need to understand the damn stealth rules. Thanks for any opinons you can give.

 

[KidSnide]

Question: does this override the normal Becoming Hidden rules? ('You can make a stealth check against an enemy only if you have superior cover or total concealment')

I don't have MP2 in front of me, but my recollection was that one of the Stealthy build's major advantages is that a stealthy rogue could make a stealth check based on only regular cover or concealment (but not the cover you get from standing behind your allies). That should make getting stealth a lot easier.

Question: This may be semantics, but should I read that as "hidden BEFORE you attacked" instead of "hidden WHEN you attacked", as attacking itself makes you lose your hidden status?

(2) "Hidden when you attacked" is legit. You don't become unhidden until after the action that caused you to lose the hidden status.

I believe SabreCat is correct. This is one of the reasons that a shift/move-and-attack power is good for a rogue. If a rogue takes a move action to get into position and then attacks, the move action has the potential to break stealth. If a rogue uses a power that lets him move from cover and attack as a single power, then the attack gets the benefit of however hidden the rogue was before the move.

This is why Deft Strike, IME, is the essential must-take rogue at-will. It lets you reliably move out of superior cover and make your ranged attack while still having a move action to duck back behind superior cover to re-establish stealth. This is an important ability because superior cover is typically not a space you can attack from. With a stealth rogue build, you can attack and re-stealth from regular cover, making manuevering less complicated.

(3) Question: is this going to be a logistics nightmare to play out? (Sorry, that's an opinion question, not strictly a rules question)

I've played with a few rogues with different levels of rules talent. IME, it will be an unbearable nightmare until both you at PCat learn how the stealth rules work. After that, you'll have trouble figuring out why anyone found it confusing in the first place. (It's real easy once you get used to identifying the squares that give you cover.)

-KS

 

[Mr. Wilson]

Please note that I do not own MP2 yet, as the weather has been terrible in Ohio. So, this is solely based off your description of the powers.

(1) Several new rogue powers in Martial Power 2 have an effect after the attack that is some flavor of "You shift (some number) of squares, and you can make a Stealth check to become hidden".

Question: does this override the normal Becoming Hidden rules? ('You can make a stealth check against an enemy only if you have superior cover or total concealment')

- If it doesn't, this effect seems... less than useful.
- If it does, I have a follow-on question - what about the 'Remaining Hidden' rules? ('If you no longer have cover or concealment against an enemy, you don't remain hidden from that enemy')

The way you describe the power, I would rule that it provides a kind of hiding in plain sight advantage. So, in this case, you shift the number of squares the effect calls for, then make a Stealth check. If you make the check, you are hidden. Remember, in 4E specific > general, when it comes to rules, so in this case, the power supersedes the general stealth rules.

(2) Other after-the-attack effects:
* If you are hidden when you attack, you can make a Stealth check to remain hidden
* You do not expend this power if you were hidden from the target when you made the attack

Question: This may be semantics, but should I read that as "hidden BEFORE you attacked" instead of "hidden WHEN you attacked", as attacking itself makes you lose your hidden status?

See explanations provided above by SabreCat.

(3) Question: is this going to be a logistics nightmare to play out? (Sorry, that's an opinion question, not strictly a rules question)

I don't think so, but ymmv.

 

[chitzk0i]

The way you describe the power, I would rule that it provides a kind of hiding in plain sight advantage. So, in this case, you shift the number of squares the effect calls for, then make a Stealth check. If you make the check, you are hidden. Remember, in 4E specific > general, when it comes to rules, so in this case, the power supersedes the general stealth rules.

Specific beats general, but only on the rules it's actually changing. If it just says "make a stealth check", it is not modifying the outcome of that stealth check in any way. You would refer to the normal stealth rules to determine whether what this check actually does.

 

[Ruined]

I don't have MP2 in front of me, but my recollection was that one of the Stealthy build's major advantages is that a stealthy rogue could make a stealth check based on only regular cover or concealment (but not the cover you get from standing behind your allies). That should make getting stealth a lot easier.

-KS

Here's the reference for the Shadowy Rogue class feature.

Cunning Sneak: If you end a move action at least 3 squares away from your starting position, you can make a Stealth check to become hidden if you have any concealment or any cover, except for cover provided by intervening allies.

It also reduces the penalties for moving and trying to stealth.

 

[Markn]

Here's the reference for the Shadowy Rogue class feature.

Cunning Sneak: If you end a move action at least 3 squares away from your starting position, you can make a Stealth check to become hidden if you have any concealment or any cover, except for cover provided by intervening allies.

It also reduces the penalties for moving and trying to stealth.

Correct. What Cunning Sneak gives you, is that once you establish being hidden by having total cover, you can maintain being hidden with only cover or concealment and not total cover/concealment. Without this, the only way to become hidden is with total cover or complete concealment.

Few other things of note:

Sabrecat is correct in his reading of question 1 and 2. To expand on his second answer a bit - once you are hidden, you only become unhidden after the completion of an action. Thus, if you move and no longer have cover you are no longer hidden since the move action is completed. However, if you use an attack action and it lets you shift, then attack you are considered hidden (and thus get CA and sneak attack damage) until after the power has resolved. Once the power is resolved you are no longer hidden. As others have said, powers that let you move and attack as part of the same power are ideal for rogues who consider hiding their forte. Now combine this with Cunning Sneak and you could then move 3 squares after that attack where you have cover and you can attempt to hide again instead of requiring complete cover to hide again. This is the key here!

Also, as others have said, once you get your head wrapped around it, its a pretty simple rule. Its just gettting the understanding of whats happening to begin with that makes hiding seem scary to deal with.

Hope that helps

 

[KidSnide]

Cunning Sneak: If you end a move action at least 3 squares away from your starting position, you can make a Stealth check to become hidden if you have any concealment or any cover, except for cover provided by intervening allies.

It also reduces the penalties for moving and trying to stealth.

Correct. What Cunning Sneak gives you, is that once you establish being hidden by having total cover, you can maintain being hidden with only cover or concealment and not total cover/concealment. Without this, the only way to become hidden is with total cover or complete concealment.

That's not quite right. Normally (i.e. without Cunning Sneak), you can maintain being hidden with only cover or concealment and not total cover/concealment.

What Cunning Sneak gives you is the ability to become hidden with non-superior cover, provided that you have moved at least 3 squares from your starting position.

-KS

 

[Sagiro]

Correct. What Cunning Sneak gives you, is that once you establish being hidden by having total cover, you can maintain being hidden with only cover or concealment and not total cover/concealment. Without this, the only way to become hidden is with total cover or complete concealment.
...

Just curious -- what about this:

Cunning Sneak: If you end a move action at least 3 squares away from your starting position, you can make a Stealth check to become hidden if you have any concealment or any cover, except for cover provided by intervening allies.​

...makes you say "once you establish being hidden by having total cover..."?

I haven't seen MP2, but from the quoted text, I'd say that you could be standing out in the open (and completely unhidden) at the start of your turn, then move 3+ squares into some underbrush (normal concealment) or behind a small tree (non-total cover), and get to make a Stealth check. If you succeed you are now hidden, and you can then attack (with Deft Strike from behind the tree, for instance) and get Sneak Attack damage.

Is that right?