MtG, D&D and Me TITLE NAME EDIT-The thread where Joe apparently offends everyone

[joethelawyer]

Thanks, Joe. Like I said last time, it's really enjoyable to read about you. Not least because, over and above the connect, when you develop these narratives you'rs are extremely well written. I mean - damn, WotC actually pays Shelly Mazzanoble to create such fictions for part of their customer base (I let you guess which part that is - it's certainly not women, because they find her implied stereotyping of women offensive, more often than not). And Shelly's prose sucks, never mind that she's got nothing to TELL. Whereas you do.

So keep these things coming - I picked up yesterday's one from your blog (which I bookmarked last time), so you can tell, there are people here interested in you and those things. Don't let yourself be deluded by the occasional fool telling you that that's what blogs are for. They're not. Or at least not exclusively.

As to one of your main points, let me cite our stoutest defender of 4E over at TheRPGSite, who runs plenty of RPGA games.

I'm playing 4E myself (not only) and I find it hard to deny that (say) "fiddling around with the Character Builder (say) is all about immersion and not tweaking the numbers." If it was different, you'd expect a bit more flavour text to accompany the numbers being tweaked, be these powers or magic items. My largest beef with 4E's first MM was that the powers of monsters didn't even have ONE line of descriptive text, this making it on occasion impossible to see what the power represented in-game (given the frequent disconnect from mechanics to in-game description). I'm really glad MM2 fixed that, it's an indication that WotC shares some of these concerns. I'm certainly glad they aren't listening to their fan boys. If they were, they'd never have occasion to remedy the game's shortcomings.

Thanks for the kind words. I appreciate it. I never heard of Shelly M. before your post, so of course I had to google her---she's the part-time sorceress woman it turns out. I don't now anything about her writing, but to have mine compared to anyone who makes a buck at the job makes me hope I can someday quit the law gig and write full time. I know WOTC would never hire me though. I know it's hard to believe, but I said a few things from back in the early 90's up to the present day about them that....

 

[mlund]

It is disturbing.

I think the part that is disturbing is the lack of content rather than the medium. When you write about how "no one reads books anymore," too much emphasis is placed on the medium not enough rests with the content.

Aristotle did not publish books. The most important writings related to the formation of the United States of America were circulated in letters and papers, not books. The greatest intellectual debates of the modern age have been rendered into mere transcripts.

Should we really be disturbed that consumers might be less inclined to spend their limited resources of time and money on exclusive installments of an author's 400 pages of narrow prose at a time?

The real subject for concern is this: With what do we replace such volumes, heavy in pages but light in content? If our consumption moves towards works that are light in page-count but heavy with content then we are well served. If, however, we simply replace one bankrupt medium with another we've gained nothing and likely simply sacrificed a portion of our literacy in the bargain.

I think my main point of contention with the idea of "books" is that brevity is of great value in literature, but it is seldom rewarded in publishing.

- Marty Lund

 

[joethelawyer]

I think the part that is disturbing is the lack of content rather than the medium. When you write about how "no one reads books anymore," too much emphasis is placed on the medium not enough rests with the content.

Aristotle did not publish books. The most important writings related to the formation of the United States of America were circulated in letters and papers, not books. The greatest intellectual debates of the modern age have been rendered into mere transcripts.

Should we really be disturbed that consumers might be less inclined to spend their limited resources of time and money on exclusive installments of an author's 400 pages of narrow prose at a time?

The real subject for concern is this: With what do we replace such volumes, heavy in pages but light in content? If our consumption moves towards works that are light in page-count but heavy with content then we are well served. If, however, we simply replace one bankrupt medium with another we've gained nothing and likely simply sacrificed a portion of our literacy in the bargain.

I think my main point of contention with the idea of "books" is that brevity is of great value in literature, but it is seldom rewarded in publishing.

- Marty Lund

good points.

 

[Keefe the Thief]

I think the part that is disturbing is the lack of content rather than the medium. When you write about how "no one reads books anymore," too much emphasis is placed on the medium not enough rests with the content.

Aristotle did not publish books. The most important writings related to the formation of the United States of America were circulated in letters and papers, not books. The greatest intellectual debates of the modern age have been rendered into mere transcripts.

Should we really be disturbed that consumers might be less inclined to spend their limited resources of time and money on exclusive installments of an author's 400 pages of narrow prose at a time?

The real subject for concern is this: With what do we replace such volumes, heavy in pages but light in content? If our consumption moves towards works that are light in page-count but heavy with content then we are well served. If, however, we simply replace one bankrupt medium with another we've gained nothing and likely simply sacrificed a portion of our literacy in the bargain.

I think my main point of contention with the idea of "books" is that brevity is of great value in literature, but it is seldom rewarded in publishing.

- Marty Lund

Sorry, are we still talking about RPGs? Or M:tG? Should we fork a "cultural erosion" thread?

And i LOVE the irony that a thread with posts which are often too long to read is having a party about brevity in literature.

So, please, Joethelawyer: your original post in 2 sentences, please.

 

[Mournblade94]

It is disturbing. I just read an article related to this today. A professor wrote something called The commencement speech you'll never hear. In it he says:


[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][SIZE=-1]Well, I believe that the humanities have failed you also, especially in regards to ethics and morality. More specifically, those of us who teach English have ignored your urgent needs to write better. I have taught long enough (fifty years) to observe a steady decline in the writing skills of almost all students at virtually every level of the educational system—but especially during the past decade or so of grade inflation and feel-good philosophies promoted by educators to nurture students’ self-esteem.[/SIZE][/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][SIZE=-1]Remarkably, almost all of you who are graduating today—no matter what your major—will complete your degree with a B+ grade point average or higher. At some institutions, and in some disciplines, rarely is a grade below an A- given to any student who completes a course. And yet surveys indicate that many of you do little or no work outside of the classroom, assuming that you do attend classes.[/SIZE][/FONT]


[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][SIZE=-1]Were you truly challenged by your higher education? Did you write papers that asked you to grapple with ideas and not simply borrow from the Internet? Did your professors carefully read your papers and challenge you with their comments?[/SIZE][/FONT]


[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][SIZE=-1]What I am suggesting is that your professors rarely gave you the grades you deserved but, instead, enabled most of you to assume that you are hard-working original thinkers, brilliant students who were deeply immersed in the disciplines they supposedly taught you.[/SIZE][/FONT]


[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][SIZE=-1]So this is where you find yourself today: with a stunning grade point average from a first-rate institution, an impressive résumé (because of all your carefully chosen extra-curricular activities and internships), heavily in debt, and with few prospects for a high-paying job.[/SIZE][/FONT]

The whole article is over here.
Charles R. Larson: The Commencement Address You'll Never Hear

This Unfortunately is true of the entire US education system as a whole. Can't speak for other nations, but the quality of education has gone down while grade inflation has increased.

Until the US education system puts responsibility for learning back on the student, we will continue to decline. You would be hard pressed to find a 20+ year teacher that thinks students are better than they were before Individualized education plans came about.

 

[Raven Crowking]

joethelawyer: Just last night I had a great gaming experience. The players were 18, 19, and 10 years old. It was, singularly, the best energy I've experienced in a game since High School. I felt really revitalized.

The older two learned to game on WotC-D&D, and spent some years with complex rules systems. We were playing a system that is, frankly, much simpler. Event-driven rather than build-driven. It was a lot of fun. The 18-year-old had a few games to train himself away from build-isms, the 19-year-old got it shortly after character generation (and he took far longer on character generation than necessary because he had grown accustomed to needed to optimize).

It was the 19-year-old's first game using this system (he has played 3e and 4e, and is a fan of 4e), and by the end of the evening he told me that the lighter system helped him roleplay more and get into what was happening to his character more. And that was an unsolicited comment.

So, yes, for me an interest in a more old-school game is definitely to recapture some of what I feel the game has lost. OTOH, it isn't simply nostalgia or rose-coloured glasses....it was certainly alive and well, as fun as ever, last night. And coming up through a new generation of players!


RC

 

[JoeGKushner]

I was born in 1971.

A fair reader in my youth but nothing to compare to Joe.

I actually started gaming with the yellow box. What's that? Marvel Super Heroes. While I enjoyed the Hobbit and other assorted fantasy tales, my true love was for Marvel Super Heroes by TSR.

One of my friends noticed the publisher and pointed me out to D&D. He played many a bastardized version ranging from 'basic/expert/etc...' to AD&D to throwing in Role Aids.

Different people are looking to the game system to give them different things. Some have feelings of being taken out of the game by certain parts of different systems.

While I can see it, it hasn't been a problem for me. When I read over on Penny Arcade some of the set ups they have, I'm jealous. Some great gaming going on there.

Gaming changes. It will continue to change. I've mentioned before that I would not be surprised to see D&D become an app for your phone. With Google planning to sell books in the future that will be readable on any web browser. Apple planning a iPod around the size of a comic.... well, I can't be the only one to see it.

As long as I continue to enjoy myself and my players enjoy the game, or when I play I enjoy the game, I will continue to game.

When it comes to different gaming styles and playing with people I don't like, I skip it. I'm too old to waste time doing that.

When it comes to finding non-D&D games, not only is Games Plus one of the best hobby stores in the Chicagoland region, there's the internet itself. While I love Games Plus, it's utility isn't as awesome as it was in the 80's. Not that it doesn't have a massive stock and backlog of many a game, but rather that you can get so muc of what you might want online.

Complaining that you can't find variant game systems in the year 2009 is odd. While I can see not wishing to use Buy.Com or Amazon.com or any number of other services, it's a huge handicap to put yourself under.

While I'm not welcoming the electronic overlords, I am watching them with some level of curiosity and wondering what the future will bring and when it'll be my turn to have the old man rant.

 

[jdrakeh]

joethelawyer: Just last night I had a great gaming experience. The players were 18, 19, and 10 years old. It was, singularly, the best energy I've experienced in a game since High School. I felt really revitalized.

Haven't you heard? joethelawyer quit ENWorld.

 

[frankthedm]

Haven't you heard? joethelawyer quit ENWorld.

He's still around enough to trigger activity logs.

# Last Activity: Today 03:06 PM

 

[Remathilis]

He's still around enough to trigger activity logs.

He posted his goodbye in the Rouse thread, not sure if that counts though...