Mucking with Paladins

[Argus Decimus Mokira]

Hey

So, now that I've changed around druids, I've turned my tweaking energies to paladins. First, a bit about my campaign.

The divine spellcasting classes of my FR campaign include clerics (no heavy armor, removed some direct combat enhancement spells), adepts (as in DMG, represent the non-adventuring clergy), rangers (complete homebrew with somewhat decreased spellcasting), and druids (semi-spontaneous casters). In addition, there are two non-spellcasting classes that are strongly tied to religions - monks (basic PH version) and templars (aka sohei from OA, minus spellcasting but better weapons/armor).

Now, in order to fit paladins into this mix, I'd like to go back to the basic concept of paladin - a holy warrior, blessed by a lawful good god to protect the innocent, combat evil, and be an all around paragon of good. Using a strict interprtation of the PH paladin description (and throwing in a little Joan d'Arc for good measure), I'm envisoning paladins as competent warriors capable of casting spells to aid themselves in combat - yet they have never received formal training in either discipline. Like sorcerers, paladins are born with their abilities. Clerics and adepts spend time in seminaries learning to cast spells and fight, rangers spend time in apprenticeship with a master, and druids learn their skills amongst their own circles. But the paladin simply knows how to cast spells, wield a longsword (with maybe a little training), lay on hands, and all that other jazz.

That's the concept, here's an idea for execution ... drop paladins to d8 hit points, drop their current spells per day progression, and replace it with the adepts (adding access to 0th and 5th levels spells, gets access to 1st level spells 5 character levels earlier, access to 2nd level spells 4 character levels earlier, 3rd level spells 3 character levels earlier, and 4th level spells 2 character levels earlier). Further, paladins can no longer detect evil; instead, they detect enemies of their faith - a paladin of Tyr, for example, would detect followers of Bane, Cyric, Mask, Talona, and Talos (from Faiths and Pantheons).

So what do y'all think? I'm specifically interested in the increased spellcasting balanced by nerfed hit points and detect evil, not the other junk that crops up whenever a paladin is mentioned on a board (ie no, thank you, but I don't care for anti-paladins or CG paladins or any of that). Thanks for your time.

-Matt

 

[Crothian]

Are you altering the Paladin Spell List at all? Obviously you'll be adding 0 level and 5th level spells to them, but are you making any other changes? Also, will the Paladin's caster level still equal half their class level?

 

[Argus Decimus Mokira]

hehe - I knew that was too easy ...

I'm adding paladin spells from DotF, Magic of Faerun, R&R 1, R&R 2, Book of Hallowed Magic, Kingdoms of Kalamar Player's Guide, Mercenaries, and a couple from online sources - mainly the WotC Spellbook feature.

As far as caster level, I reckon it should be equal to character level like the other spellcasters. Since the paladin will now be getting spells right from 1st level, the class is more akin to the bard as a "moderate" spellcasting class.

-Matt

 

[Crothian]

In that case I think you need to to remove some other stuff from the Paladin to make up for it. You might get rid of Lay on Hands and the Remove Disease abilities since the magic can easily take the places of these abilities.

 

[LeifVignirsson]

I always enjoyed the paladins in Birthright (don't ask me to spell out the name of the god, I can barely pronounce it, even with the guide). The best thing was that they were CG with a sacrifice of some of the paladin skills. Of course there is the paladin set up that they have in AEG's "Good", the CG and NG paladins are a nice touch.

Then again, I have never been a big fan of the "extreme aligns" (LG and CE), they just seem a bit too stuffy for me. Maybe it is because I associate them with Paladins and Anti-Paladins... oops, Blackguards...

I like the idea, I would like to see what everyone else thinks too.

 

[Argus Decimus Mokira]

Oh, a few other things, I'll be adding detect evil and detect chaos to the paladin's spell list as first level spells.
Also, some spells on both the cleric and paladin spell list might get "re-leveled", since it seems that paladins get some spells that are higher level for clerics mixed in with their 4th level spells.

-Matt

 

[Argus Decimus Mokira]

That's a good point Cothian. Do you think that instead of dropping them, delaying them to higher level might compensate? Maybe remove disease at 6th level continuing on the same progression to a max of 5/week at 18th level, and lay on hands starting at 5th level?

Keep in mind that the adept still only gets a max of 3 spells/day for 0th-4th level, and only 2/day of 5th level (and thats not even until 19th level). I'd like the paladin spells to be more focused on aiding in combat, while the healing and protection aspects of the paladin class abilities, given to the character directly by their deity rather than through spells.

-Matt

 

[Khorod]

Remove disease is a little lame as an ability anyway, particularly one that increases with level. From the healing touch of Kings and all that. You could just make it a once per day thing.

You could also make Lay on Hands affect only the paladin himself. The ones who are 'laying' on others can have levels of cleric...

 

[Spatzimaus]

IMC, we just have Paladins pick one Domain of their deity. The granted power replaces the "Immune to disease" bit, and the domain spells replace the "Remove Disease X/week" abilities. Much more flexible this way.

We also did a lot of other things, but if you're just looking to tweak the class that's a good start.