Muhlatimic Dragons

[Rhuarc]

Not that thrilled about the relaunches as well, as those will probably take again way longer than you anticipate now, but really hope you get the things on your list done. It sounds great, as always with your ideas!

And I'm with Khisanth of course, the earlier the monsters, the better! Even if it would mean buying it twice

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hi U_K

Hiya mate!

well I remember that when you give us the advance of Godsend there was some stats already finished and ready to go, so you can include them .

Well I am not sure exactly how finished they were...but I am tempted to at least add in Metatron.

The more entries I add, the more art is needed, the more time is taken, so we'll see, I don't want to be spending too much time on it. Probably one new entry (likely Metatron...to round out the Angels) makes the most sense at the moment.

Also it will be cool to have the templates mentioned in Ascension.

...or I could erase their mention from the Ascension hardcover.

 

[Upper_Krust]

hey Khisanth mate!

Well, could you release a pre-version with JUST the monsters (no encounter/adventure at all) please ... just to get them out there? I'd be happy to buy it twice just to get the monsters early... these things aren't expensive anyway.

Wondering what a good price for a 32 page softcover is at the moment? Some people seem to be charging more than I would for such books (looking at others on the market), but I don't want to price myself out of making a tiny profit.

I don't mean to be pushy though...

I know, I'd like to have everything done NOW. But lets just see how much I can get done before the end of the month.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hey Rhuarc amigo!

Not that thrilled about the relaunches as well, as those will probably take again way longer than you anticipate now, but really hope you get the things on your list done. It sounds great, as always with your ideas!

And I'm with Khisanth of course, the earlier the monsters, the better! Even if it would mean buying it twice

I appreciate the support guys.

I'm open to suggestions for 32 page book ideas (doesn't even need to be monsters). Not sure the Iron Tower of Dispater can be completed in 32 pages anymore. Ironically its the least finished of the first four suggested epic bestiary books I am proposing. The reason I wanted to start with it was that it has some really cool ideas; covers a good spread and has a recognisable 'face' (ie. Dispater)

Problems facing a 32 page epic monster book include:

1. Sufficient diversity in content to garner interest - while I am convinced that themes work well in 4E rather than just random epic monsters in a book. Some people might be put off by a given theme and think well it'll be all 'devils' and that doesn't fit my campaign.

If you have a 100 page (or whatever) book, then its easy to have a broad range but still have well fleshed out themes.

2. A sufficient level spread across the epic tier - sounds simple enough but something like the Temporal themed "Temple At the End of Time" has a far higher level average (spread of about 30-39) than say the "Caves of the Bat God" (spread of 18-27).

I don't want to just have everything 21-35, I'd rather have a progression of things where we build up to increasingly more powerful stuff as each is released. I know the lower epic tier stuff will likely get more use, but if you don't have those more powerful monsters (like the Disir and super-solo overgods like Erebus) then you won't keep pushing to see whats out there.

I'd love to have each 32 page book as part of a campaign so that each would just 'up the stakes'. Incrementally upping the Encounter Levels of the monsters.

 

[eduar]

Hiya mate!

Hi U_K

Well I am not sure exactly how finished they were...but I am tempted to at least add in Metatron.

The more entries I add, the more art is needed, the more time is taken, so we'll see, I don't want to be spending too much time on it. Probably one new entry (likely Metatron...to round out the Angels) makes the most sense at the moment.

That will be super cool, I always wanted to see Metatron

...or I could erase their mention from the Ascension hardcover.

No U_K, you would not dare to do something so evil, right? and I'm almost sure that someones are already there in your notes and you forgotten, like the cimeriel or heliodes. I mean There were so many things missed, you would not remove the existing ones.

 

[Rhuarc]

1. Sufficient diversity in content to garner interest

As I have stated before, I think you should focus more on getting books out, than to find the perfect page count for your customers. It just won't help anyone if you decide that 100 pages is the best option, but it takes you 1 year to finish it instead of 2-3 months.
Also, many DMs will probably still use the devils in this example and reskin them to fit better into their campaigns. Good epic material is that rare on the market, that only very few will skip such a book I imagine; even if the theme doesn't fit at the moment.

2. A sufficient level spread across the epic tier

I agree that an incrementally upping of the level seems like the best idea, so why don't you try it? This way you can add the more complex rules (like fighting armies, etc.) step by step.

I'd love to have each 32 page book as part of a campaign so that each would just 'up the stakes'. Incrementally upping the Encounter Levels of the monsters.

This sounds tricky, would be a cool idea indeed, but not sure how feasible it is trying to achieve this. Probably will take too much time as well...

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hi U_K

Hey eduar matey!

That will be super cool, I always wanted to see Metatron

No U_K, you would not dare to do something so evil, right? and I'm almost sure that someones are already there in your notes and you forgotten, like the cimeriel or heliodes. I mean There were so many things missed, you would not remove the existing ones.

The chances of me doing all those templates to a sufficient standard is very slim. I mean maybe the Nosferatu since I put a bit of work into it on the website.

Cimeriel, Helioeides and others I'm not so sure.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hey Rhuarc amigo!

As I have stated before, I think you should focus more on getting books out, than to find the perfect page count for your customers. It just won't help anyone if you decide that 100 pages is the best option, but it takes you 1 year to finish it instead of 2-3 months.

I know BUT if I am going with the 32 page format then I'd rather go with 32 pages of epic content that people would like to see, rather than stuff they are a bit "meh" about.

Also, many DMs will probably still use the devils in this example and reskin them to fit better into their campaigns. Good epic material is that rare on the market, that only very few will skip such a book I imagine; even if the theme doesn't fit at the moment.

I suppose. The Iron Tower of Dispater stuff does look like spanning more than 32 pages and I think that is me falling into the same trap as before where the content just 'organically' grows until it is 48, then 64 pages and so on.

I'll have a last look at it tonight, maybe I can get it to 32 by cutting some stuff. There were 3 golems in there and they were taking up 10 pages because of the Guardian (Minion) - Golem (Standard) - Sentinel (Elite) - Gargant (Solo) - Colossi (Mega-sized Super Solo) iterations.

The main space taker were the NINE Dukes of Dispater. All Solo monsters, probably 2 pages each, making 18 pages for those alone.

Then say 2 more for Dispater, 9 more for various devils, 1 for the Abomination and 1 for the Dragonspawn. then say 4-5 more pages for various things and then the obligatory 4 pages for Credits/Contents/Encounter Level Table/Previews:

PAGES: 4 (basic) + 10 (golems) + 18 (dukes) + 9 (various devils) + 2 (Dispater) + 2 (Abom & Dragonspawn) + 4-5 (other stuff) = 50 pages. I mean I could probably cut that down to 48 total somehow. But its still WAY bigger than 32 pages.

I could probably even cut that into two and make TWO 32 page books, add the Mega-size rules into the first and the UNIT rules into the second (or vice versa given you would encounter the armies OUTSIDE the city).

I agree that an incrementally upping of the level seems like the best idea, so why don't you try it? This way you can add the more complex rules (like fighting armies, etc.) step by step.

Had a look at this last night. The Nosferatu stuff is the lowest level spread (closely followed by the Iron Tower of Dispater stuff).

So maybe Shadowfell/Nosferatu - Dispater/Hells - Asura/Elemental Chaos - Disir/Temporal. Although I don't really want to do another Vampire-centric book after the three Vampire Bestiary volumes.

I also don't think the Dispater stuff will work at a mere 32 pages.

Maybe:
A. The Iron Hell (32 pages on the second layer of Hell, introducing Dispater's army, Generals and the UNIT rules with examples)
B. The Iron Tower of Dispater (32 pages on Dis itself, its Dukes, Dispater, his defences including the MEGA-SIZE rules with examples)
...then I can bunch those together into a 64 page book.

thats sounding like a plan...

This sounds tricky, would be a cool idea indeed, but not sure how feasible it is trying to achieve this. Probably will take too much time as well...

I know, I'd probably spend 6 months planning the best approach to get it perfect rather than just working on it and getting it out in any order.

 

[FieryDragonLord]

Couldn't you just make one 64 page book?

 

[Rhuarc]

Couldn't you just make one 64 page book?

Of course he could, but the issue with Krusty is that he needs to get stuff finished within a 'reasonable' amount of time (always way longer than we all like). Keeping the books to the minimum page count would mean we have a chance of seeing 2-3 products from him per year (hopefully). The higher the page count, the longer it will take him, the greater the chance something will interrupt or delay him again.



But UK, that really sounds like a good plan. Now get on it!

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hey Fiery DragonLord amigo!

Couldn't you just make one 64 page book?

As Rhuarc points out. the higher the page count the longer something will take and the greater chance of interuptions affecting the schedule even further.

Anyway I like this plan, so post-Vampire Bestiary thats what I'll do, even if the title of the books may change.

 

[Betrayor]

I understand that the topic has a new direction but I had a question on the original post,
just to be sure what is the divine status of Muhlatimic Dragons?
I gathered that it is between a highlord and the supreme being,
or I misunderstood?

 

[Khisanth the Ancient]

I understand that the topic has a new direction but I had a question on the original post,
just to be sure what is the divine status of Muhlatimic Dragons?
I gathered that it is between a highlord and the supreme being,
or I misunderstood?

Going by U_K's list on page 2 (http://www.enworld.org/forum/showth...ragons/page2&p=6104146&viewfull=1#post6104146) yes, that's right.

Or rather they'd be "Supernal Dragons", but at least in 3.X IH, the Nehaschimics ("Eternal" Dragons) and I think the Adamics ("Sidereal" Dragons) were less powerful than Eternals and Sidereals overall, though of equivalent divine bonus.

 

[Upper_Krust]

hey there Betrayor!

I understand that the topic has a new direction but I had a question on the original post,
just to be sure what is the divine status of Muhlatimic Dragons?
I gathered that it is between a highlord and the supreme being,
or I misunderstood?

What you have to remember is that Dragons, because of their power-to-age dynamic, actually span a few tiers and thus cover a spread of divinity.

For me, true (ie. basic) dragons should not be epic. The greatest of 'Earthly' dragons should maybe be about Level 20 (solo) monsters. A few levels over that wouldn't hurt, but Level 30 for an ancient Red or Gold dragon seems way too much in my opinion.

Ancient Epic Dragons (effectively Dragon "Gods") should be adversaries for the Epic Tier.

Ancient Cosmic Dragons (Space Dragons) should be adversaries primarily for the Immortal Tier (31-40) but with Super-solo Stat-blocks we can knock a few Levels off that. So that they could still be foes for the end of the Epic Tier.

Ancient Escatolic Dragons (Doomsday Dragons) should be foes for the Sidereal Tier (41-50).

Ancient Muhlatimic Dragons (Polemic (?) Dragons) should be enemies for the Eternal Tier (51-60)

That means when your PCs are all time lords, Ancient Muhlatimic Dragons are the sort of enemies you should be facing.

Hope that helps.

 

[Betrayor]

Thank you guys for the answers they were really helpful,even if I don't really play 4.0 since I like 3.x better and players in my region deteste 4.0 with a passion nevertheless I appreciate the insight......

 

[FieryDragonLord]

For me, true (ie. basic) dragons should not be epic. The greatest of 'Earthly' dragons should maybe be about Level 20 (solo) monsters. A few levels over that wouldn't hurt, but Level 30 for an ancient Red or Gold dragon seems way too much in my opinion.

Ancient Epic Dragons (effectively Dragon "Gods") should be adversaries for the Epic Tier.

Ancient Cosmic Dragons (Space Dragons) should be adversaries primarily for the Immortal Tier (31-40) but with Super-solo Stat-blocks we can knock a few Levels off that. So that they could still be foes for the end of the Epic Tier.

Ancient Escatolic Dragons (Doomsday Dragons) should be foes for the Sidereal Tier (41-50).

Ancient Muhlatimic Dragons (Polemic (?) Dragons) should be enemies for the Eternal Tier (51-60)

That means when your PCs are all time lords, Ancient Muhlatimic Dragons are the sort of enemies you should be facing.

Hope that helps.

So for Solos:
Immortals: 21-30
Sidereals: 31-40
Eternals: 41-50
Supernals: 51-60
That seems good, but aren't gods in 4e level 31-40 Solos?

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hey guys - just to let you know I go to Portugal tomorrow and won't be back until Monday. I'll respond to any replies or emails when I get back.

So for Solos:
Immortals: 21-30
Sidereals: 31-40
Eternals: 41-50
Supernals: 51-60
That seems good, but aren't gods in 4e level 31-40 Solos?

Hero-deity: 21-23 Elite
Quasi-deity: 24-26 Elite
Demi-deity 27-30 Elite

Lesser Deity = 31-33 Elite
Intermediate Deity = 34-36 Elite
Greater Deity = 37-40 Elite

Elder One = 41-43 Solo
Old One = 44-46 Solo
First One = 47-50 Solo

Demiurge = 51-53 Solo
Time Lord = 54-56 Solo
High lord = 57-60 Solo

1. Elite Gods are treated as Solo monsters on their home plane.

2. Technically solo monsters could be Super-solos at -5 levels.

 

[Omeganian]

Ancient Muhlatimic Dragons (Polemic (?) Dragons) should be enemies for the Eternal Tier (51-60)

That means when your PCs are all time lords, Ancient Muhlatimic Dragons are the sort of enemies you should be facing.

Hope that helps.

My thought was to have them as above regular Eternals as a dragon is to regular human, and perhaps with a few more age categories than regulars (maybe each dragon class gets an additional category - Wyrm for Epics, then Great Wyrm for Cosmic, then an Archon Drake for Eschatolic, then a Tanin for Mukhlatimic). The scenario I put in the background is basically a guy beating street bullies with a wand powered by a dragon's scale.

 

[FieryDragonLord]

My thought was to have them as above regular Eternals as a dragon is to regular human, and perhaps with a few more age categories than regulars (maybe each dragon class gets an additional category - Wyrm for Epics, then Great Wyrm for Cosmic, then an Archon Drake for Eschatolic, then a Tanin for Mukhlatimic). The scenario I put in the background is basically a guy beating street bullies with a wand powered by a dragon's scale.

I like this idea very much. Particularly the name "Archon Drake".

If Muhlatimics are Supernals, then they are as threatening to Eternals as normal dragons are to humans.

It seems like the dragons should be at least 5 levels higher to be the appropriate divine rank, if the strongest dragons are ancients.If ancient Epics are level 21-30, then they are at most Demi-Gods. If ancient Cosmics are level 31-40, then they are at most Greater Gods, and so on for the other types. So the dragons are one rank below their divine tier.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Howdy Omeganian mate!

My thought was to have them as above regular Eternals as a dragon is to regular human, and perhaps with a few more age categories than regulars (maybe each dragon class gets an additional category - Wyrm for Epics, then Great Wyrm for Cosmic, then an Archon Drake for Eschatolic, then a Tanin for Mukhlatimic). The scenario I put in the background is basically a guy beating street bullies with a wand powered by a dragon's scale.

I don't particularly think the additional age category thing is a good idea.

1. If you can't get the ideas across within five stat-blocks then your design is lacking.
2. Some of these really need to be ridiculous Super-solo stat-blocks taking up a large amount of space.
3. Dragons tend to be fairly similar, so I think its self defeating making simply more stat-blocks.
4. Giving dragons a greater 'spread' of levels also makes them less unique to certain tiers.
5. It doesn't make sense for them to be more powerful than they already are.
6. Time (and thus age categories) cease to be a factor when we get to Eschatolic - in fact, the more powerful the dragon tier the LESS ages it should have in my opinion, because time ceases to be important.

What I will probably do is add a new size category to each:

True Dragon = Gargantuan size Ancients, 5 ages
Epic = Mega-size Ancients, 4 ages
Cosmic = Giga-size Ancients, 3 ages
Eschatolic = Tera-size Ancients, 2 ages
Muhlatimic = Peta-size Ancients, 1 age

Of course the question then is what size to make all the preceeding ages...?