Multi-attack actions = one attack or three?
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keterys
First Post
Unfortunately, hydra is the not particularly useful example since it's calling a single target power multiple times and it can individually target each attack... so yeah, it might be useful to instead ask about Hand of Radiance or Icy Rays.
And, I mean, again - RAW, RAI, and how people run their games can be pretty different on this one, as was already stated. Like, I think it works RAW as you say, but I don't think it's RAI for HoR or IR to work that way, and it's certainly not how _many_ people play. I'd even be willing to believe a majority of the people playing dnd don't play it that way, given that IME the portion of the dnd populace that actually really analyzes the rules is pretty low.
Oh, random note - I've done Ettin and Manticore-like creatures before where you had to mark each head individually, and it can actually be very interesting. Never tried it with a hydra, but if a hydra had 4 heads that independently could be marked... would that somehow break the game, if the defender could only challenge some of the attacks, or multiple defenders could split them? Nope - it actually works out pretty interestingly.
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eamon
Explorer
To avoid too much confusion I'd like to keep to monsters. I looked through the MM2, and found the centaur hunter on page 30 - that power works pretty much the same; it's a ranged power with 1, 2, or 3 targets.
This is what I asked; let's hope they give a general answer - or if we're really lucky, this get's stuck in a FAQ:
Thanks for the extremely quick and clear answer! I now realize that the Hydra example doesn't fully cover it; as you mention it is an attack power that consists of several (basic) attacks. Other monsters powers' aren't so clear-cut.
In the MM2 (page 30), the Centaur Hunter has a power:
Triple Shot
Ranged 25/50; targets one, two, or three creatures; +19 vs. AC; 1d12+5 damage.
If the centaur targets the marking creature (the defender), can he target two other creatures without taking the marking penalty - or do the attack rolls against the other creatures count as separate attacks too?
In general, how can I distinguish between attacks that can include several creatures (e.g. a breath weapon) and attacks that consist of seperate attacks on several creatures?
In the MM2 (page 30), the Centaur Hunter has a power:
Triple Shot
Ranged 25/50; targets one, two, or three creatures; +19 vs. AC; 1d12+5 damage.
If the centaur targets the marking creature (the defender), can he target two other creatures without taking the marking penalty - or do the attack rolls against the other creatures count as separate attacks too?
In general, how can I distinguish between attacks that can include several creatures (e.g. a breath weapon) and attacks that consist of seperate attacks on several creatures?
I'm still not convinced that RAI is actually any different that RAW here, but you certainly have me doubting it; and there's no question that it's easy for a casual reader to get confused. In my experience, particularly the combat section is just skimmed - people read one example of a melee attack and one of an area attack, and say "I get it, area attacks target multiple guys" and then extrapolate from that to ranged/close attacks and miss lots of details (e.g., stuff like cover/concealment/prone and the distinctions between the attack types there).
On the other hand, once the campaign meets something like the Iron Armbands of Power and if they figure out that they won't work for close attacks, that should inspire some people to realize that things can be a little tricky. And certainly things like Passing Attack and Attacks on the Run - if ever done while marked - inevitably lead to this question.
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It seems to me that it is pretty clear that the decisions on targeting are what matter. Imagine, for argument's sake, that you're attempting to attack a horde of invisible things. You don't know where they are, so you're picking squares to attack. Area and close attacks use only one "pick a square" event, and as such are one "attack" for the purpose of adjudicating marks. No matter how many creatures may be affected by the attack, you only pick the target location once. Ranged and melee attacks, no matter how many of them you might be performing, each require you to pick a square where you think the target might be. Each targeting event is singular, and therefore each one would have to target the defender to avoid violating the mark.
eamon
Explorer
So, I thought I'd written my CS query pretty clearly, but it still took several iterations to get a clear answer. On the plus side, they're consistent and really quick - CS didn't used to be this quick in answering queries 
.
So I'd asked if the Centaur Hunter's multi-attack ranged attack would suffer marking penalties if only one of the three targets were the defender.
Jamie (CS) answered:
Jamie answered:
I never mentioned close vs. ranged vs. whatever and how that interacts with marks. I referred to a power that has a ranged attack three targets and tried to present it as reasonable that targeting the defender only once would be "including" the defender. Consistently however, CS thinks this should count as violating the mark.
I'm pretty convinced again at this point that it just doesn't matter how the power is written and whether it refers to other powers or just lists targets inline; inferred RAI by CS is that each individual melee, ranged, close and area attack is considered separately for the purpose of marks - i.e. just as RAW.
That basically means that these kind of artillery&skirmisher creatures can be marked very effectively - if the mark penalty is particularly severe, it may be preferable to not trigger the mark by targeting only the defender although that's generally not going to be the case. Assuming a solo is reasonably made (i.e. has respectable attack/damage), a solo is also encouraged to pound the defender, and that some, particularly MM1, solos aren't enough of a threat - which isn't really anything new. If a defender doesn't break a sweat when faced with a solo focus-firing on him, then that solo just isn't a threat; regardless of marking rules. Note that quite a few solo's just won't care much about the mark penalty - For instance, a paladin's Divine Challenge just looks rather wimpy when put next to most solo's huge number of hitpoints - and it only triggers 1/round.
.So I'd asked if the Centaur Hunter's multi-attack ranged attack would suffer marking penalties if only one of the three targets were the defender.
Jamie (CS) answered:
Yes, if all the attacks made by a marked target do not include the PC that put the mark on them, then the additional attacks would be at -2. Please let me know if you need anymore help!
...which confused me because of the "all" and "additional" words - something got mixed up there, so I asked:
Hi, you answered the specific question concerning the Centaur Hunter's Triple Shot power. I don't quite understand the answer though: you say that "if _all_ the attacks made by a marked target do not include the PC that put the mark on them, then the _additional_ attacks would be at -2" (emphasis mine). I'm not sure which attacks are "all" and which are "additional" here.
Since I asked whether a Centaur Hunter that targets the defender that marked him and two others would take a -2 to attack rolls vs. those two others, I suppose you mean that attack rolls vs. all additional targets (those two others) would take the -2 penalty. That implies those two targets aren't part of the same attack (despite being part of the same power) - but why?
In any case you didn't answer the general question:
"In general, how can I distinguish between attacks that can include several creatures (e.g. a breath weapon) and attacks that consist of separate attacks on several creatures?"
I'd like to understand this because in reading monster stat-blocks, I come across many attack powers that have multiple targets. Some of these count as one attack; others apparently don't - but _why_? How can I tell without asking you for each one?
Jamie (CS) answered:Since I asked whether a Centaur Hunter that targets the defender that marked him and two others would take a -2 to attack rolls vs. those two others, I suppose you mean that attack rolls vs. all additional targets (those two others) would take the -2 penalty. That implies those two targets aren't part of the same attack (despite being part of the same power) - but why?
In any case you didn't answer the general question:
"In general, how can I distinguish between attacks that can include several creatures (e.g. a breath weapon) and attacks that consist of separate attacks on several creatures?"
I'd like to understand this because in reading monster stat-blocks, I come across many attack powers that have multiple targets. Some of these count as one attack; others apparently don't - but _why_? How can I tell without asking you for each one?
Any attack that does not include the PC that marked the creature, regardless if they have 1 attack or 3, suffer a -2 to the attack(s) roll(s) if they do not target the PC that marked them. If the attack targets multiple targets, such as a breath weapon, you would get the -2 penalty to attack rolls for any attack that doesn't target the creature that marked you. The key here is in a breath or other type of attack, is to target the PC that marked the creature. Please let me know if you need anymore help!
...which doesn't really address the multi-attack issue at all, but suggests that one "attack" with multiple target is OK but multiple attacks aren't - without saying what the difference is. So, I assumed that something like the Centaur Hunter's triple-shot would be one attack with multiple targets:
Right, so if I understand correctly:
Triple Shot
Ranged 25/50; targets one, two, or three creatures; +19 vs. AC; 1d12+5 damage.
So that's one attack with up to three targets and as long as one of the targets is the PC that marked the Centaur Hunter, the mark is not violated.
(I realize I could have simply asked what an attack is - say whether the target line matters or the ranged/area nature or whatever, but I don't want to bias the answered based on notions we've developed in this thread - so I asked the questions without referring to rule minutiae).Triple Shot
Ranged 25/50; targets one, two, or three creatures; +19 vs. AC; 1d12+5 damage.
So that's one attack with up to three targets and as long as one of the targets is the PC that marked the Centaur Hunter, the mark is not violated.
Jamie answered:
Not quite. If you have a single attack that can target 1, 2 or 3 creatures, all the attacks must target the PC that marked you or they suffer the -2 penalty. So in your example, if the Centaur does a Triple shot and the 1st attack targets the PC that marked the centaur and the 2nd and 3rd shots do not target that PC; then the first attack against the PC that marked would not be at -2. However, the 2nd and 3rd shots would suffer the -2 penalty as they are not targeting the PC that marked the Centaur. I hope this clears things up for you.
Now, at this point I'll give the rapid-fire CS queries a rest...
I never mentioned close vs. ranged vs. whatever and how that interacts with marks. I referred to a power that has a ranged attack three targets and tried to present it as reasonable that targeting the defender only once would be "including" the defender. Consistently however, CS thinks this should count as violating the mark.
I'm pretty convinced again at this point that it just doesn't matter how the power is written and whether it refers to other powers or just lists targets inline; inferred RAI by CS is that each individual melee, ranged, close and area attack is considered separately for the purpose of marks - i.e. just as RAW.
That basically means that these kind of artillery&skirmisher creatures can be marked very effectively - if the mark penalty is particularly severe, it may be preferable to not trigger the mark by targeting only the defender although that's generally not going to be the case. Assuming a solo is reasonably made (i.e. has respectable attack/damage), a solo is also encouraged to pound the defender, and that some, particularly MM1, solos aren't enough of a threat - which isn't really anything new. If a defender doesn't break a sweat when faced with a solo focus-firing on him, then that solo just isn't a threat; regardless of marking rules. Note that quite a few solo's just won't care much about the mark penalty - For instance, a paladin's Divine Challenge just looks rather wimpy when put next to most solo's huge number of hitpoints - and it only triggers 1/round.
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DracoSuave
First Post
Customer Service is outsourced and is actually not an arm of WotC or Hasbro. Please remember that when considering CS inquiries and weighting them.
I have been ruling multiple attack powers provoke marks and the penalty for attacking whoever didn't marked you since the start. Draconic Flurry was the first thing I had to make a ruling on, in the very first game of 4E DnD I ever played!
In the end though, the process of attacking is discussed on PHB 291 IIRC. If a creature does that process it makes an attack. Area and burst powers specifically target all creatures within simultaneously, so effectively are one attack with multiple rolls - this is why they don't provoke. Draconic flurry and the centaurs power are one power that allows multiple attacks - a different concept. As each attack is separate, if it doesn't include whoever marked you it is subject to the -2 penalty and any mark enforcement.
In the end though, the process of attacking is discussed on PHB 291 IIRC. If a creature does that process it makes an attack. Area and burst powers specifically target all creatures within simultaneously, so effectively are one attack with multiple rolls - this is why they don't provoke. Draconic flurry and the centaurs power are one power that allows multiple attacks - a different concept. As each attack is separate, if it doesn't include whoever marked you it is subject to the -2 penalty and any mark enforcement.
Nifft
Penguin Herder
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