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Multi Attribute Disease - MAD Clerics

Do you think clerics NEED so many high stats?

  • Yeah sure, the class is too weak otherwise! I love DMM!

    Votes: 6 5.8%
  • I agree with the OP, clerics don't need it.

    Votes: 84 81.6%
  • Clerics are BORKEN, BORKEN hong says!

    Votes: 19 18.4%
  • I only allow cloistered clerics or other variant curemachines in my games.

    Votes: 7 6.8%

Darklone

Registered User
In the is "DMM Persistant sick, crazy or broken" thread in the Rules forum, it was mentioned again that clerics suffer from the MAD problem... they'd need many attributes at good values to be good.

I don't agree. Clerics IMHO are with druids the strongest coreclass... and the fact that they benefit from many attributes (str for melee, dex for archer clerics, con all the time, int for whatever... I guess int is a clerics lowest priority, wis for spellcasting, cha for turning) does not mean to me they need it.

The cleric IMHO is a variable class... you can turn it into a sage, a tank, an archer... and other things, depending on your stat distribution. But that does not mean they need all these stats. IMHO good wis, mediocre con and depending on what you want good str or good cha is all you need.

Opinions?
 

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A/ Doesn't need it; and
B/ Is technically broken; yet
C/ I allow regular and Cloistered, and several other variants; but
D/ I do not allow extra-broken stuff from outside of Core.

-- N
 

The problem with clerics is they're too good at too many different things. They can melee as well or better than fighters and barbarians. They can heal, buff, scry and turn undead. Domains give them domain powers and magic-user spells such as fly.
 

Doug McCrae said:
The problem with clerics is they're too good at too many different things. They can melee as well or better than fighters and barbarians. They can heal, buff, scry and turn undead. Domains give them domain powers and magic-user spells such as fly.

1. The only way they can melee as well or better than fighters and barbarians is through the use of buff spells. This was problematic in 3.0 when they could keep the buffs up all day and still have plenty of spells left over, but with the shortened buff duration in 3.5 they need to burn through all their spells to keep up with the Joneses.

Where this becomes problematic again is if the DM allows the party to always have control over their encounters-per-day. (In other words, the encounters never come to them and they can always decide when "enough is enough" and retreat for a rest.) It's not that DMs should always be interrupting the PCs when they attempt to rest, but the threat should be there so that the PCs don't have carte blanche to blow all their daily resources in a single battle and then rest up for the next battle.

Once you've allowed that style of play, clerics are hardly the only overpowered class: This is also the reason why so many people have problems when they compare mid-level arcane spellcasters to mid-level melee fighters.

2. Healing is irrelevant unless you're playing some kind of deathmatch-style where the PCs are fighting each other. The cleric's ability to heal is there to service the party as a whole -- it doesn't enhance the cleric personally in any way.

3. Buffs either chew up their spells to make them look just like fighters, they feed into their core competencies, or -- like healing -- they service the party as a whole and make everybody more powerful.

4. Turn undead is broken. It's broken in favor of the cleric at low levels and it's broken against the cleric at higher levels. At low levels it can regularly wipe out entire encounters with a single action. At higher levels, undead gain HD so fast compared to their CR (due to their lack of Con scores) that the ability becomes completely useless -- the cleric can never succeed in turning anything but undead mooks.

WotC has tried to fix the latter problem by giving clerics nifty feats that transform their turn checks into something meaningful and useful at higher levels. They've generally tried to work around the former problem by throwing in unhallow or some fluff-text justified turn resistance whenever they want to do an undead-centric adventure. But these just feed into the other problem turning has:

It's never actually any fun.

Turning basically has two results: (1) You roll the dice and nothing hapens. You've wasted your entire turn and accomplished nothing. (2) You roll the dice and end the encounter.

Like any other save-or-die effect, it reduces the gameplay to a game of craps.

In my experience, every group I've played with for any length of time generally develops one of two dynamics:

(1) The cleric pulls off a couple of encounter-ending turns early in his career. Everyone is really excited by how easy that encounter was. Turn continues to be used, for its use becomes increasingly blaise until the group no longer takes undead encounters seriously. Eventually turning becomes useless and the cleric stops using it.

(2) The first several times the cleric uses his turning ability it doesn't work (the dice don't like him or whatever). He become frustrated with wasting his time while other characters are doing cool stuff. He stops using turns.

And the final problem with turning is that its the only major ability in the game which survived the update to 3rd Edition while retaining an odd and wonky mechanic with no other precedent in the game and an essentially mandatory table look-up.

I've scrapped the whole system and replaced it with a single d20-based turn check creating an area effect opposed by a Will saving throw. Variability of effect depends on the margin of success.

Hmm... This ended up turning into a rant against turning. :)

Justin Alexander
http://www.thealexandrian.net
 

I'll agree with the above poster. Clerics have so many options, that players need to decide what they want their cleric to do rather than be good at everything. A cleric that wants to be good at everything needs many high ability stats, but they're also being unrealistic. A well built cleric really only needs 2 primary stats to be god and several roles. [Choose between STR, DEX, CON, INT, and CHA. About the only ability most cleric builds don't get much out of is INT ... but even then an increased INT helps on the skill front!] But no cleric needs more than 2 to be effective at a few niches.

I should also point out that there is no way that this poll is going to be anything but remotely skewed in the direction that the OP "wants to win." {As even stated in one of the choices, nonetheless!} The way each of the choices is phrased is really like saying "If I don't choose B there is something wierd about who I am as a gamer." Of course, some people are okay with knowing they're wierd and will choose another choice anyway.
 

Clerics benefit more than most classes by having great ability scores across the board because that does enable them to fill multiple roles, however a cleric who does nothing more than cast spells (and use wands for more spells) is a character who is a legitimate help to the party, and that can be achieved off of having a good Wisdom without support from any other attribute.
 

Wohoo... 23 votes for: Yeah clerics don't need many good stats.

Found one "cleric" type who needs mostly only Wis and Int: The Mystic Theurge build!
 

Nifft said:
A/ Doesn't need it; and
B/ Is technically broken; yet
C/ I allow regular and Cloistered, and several other variants; but
D/ I do not allow extra-broken stuff from outside of Core.

-- N


Does this mean you allow extra broken stuff from INSIDE core? :p
 

Personally, I think all classes should specifically benefit from high scores in multiple stats, which (except in the case of high point buys or lucky stat rolls) would lead to a wider variety of characters for each class.
 

JRRNeiklot said:
Does this mean you allow extra broken stuff from INSIDE core? :p

Most of it, yes. :)

Gate? Yes.
Natural Spell? Sure.
Divine Power? Check
Spiked Chains? Fine.
Polymorph? Yuppers.

Seriously: there's plenty of broken stuff that I do allow. I hope that the next edition (4e) will fix them, but until then, whatever. Enough of the game fits within the error bars that I don't much mind where it sticks out a little. BUT I feel no need to go out of my way and allow cruft that's even less balanced.

If you want to impress me, write stuff that's both cool and balanced. Then I'll buy the damn book for my players (as I did with Tome of Battle).

Cheers, -- N
 

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