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D&D 5E Multiclass House Rule

cbwjm

Seb-wejem
I don't know. I played a Mystic Thuerge in 3E and nobody, even the DM, thought he was broken. I don't remember the name of the exploit, but I even used the one that allowed both classes to be nearly the same level casters and nearly the same caster level as the other PCs.

It would be fun to play a Mystic Thuerge in 5E. :cool:

Practiced spellcaster I think is the feat. Adds up to 4 to your caster level of a certain class. Your caster level can't be higher than your character level. I know this mainly because I was playing Neverwinter Nights 2 recently.

I'd be half tempted to port in the mystic theurge prestige class from pathfinder into 5e or a feat that lets you learn spells as a caster a couple levels higher than your class level if you have the spell slots available (that is a Wizard 4/Cleric 1 could use the feat to be able to learn/prepare 3rd level wizard spells or 2nd level cleric spells depending on which class was chosen).
 

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CapnZapp

Legend
The "Best 50/50 Multiclass?" thread got me thinking, can the rule that you are limited to your spell selection as per the level of each class be changed to limited to the same level that determines your multiclass spell slots and still be balanced (i.e. using the multiclass table for spell slots and prep levels)?


The reason I ask is that except for Class 1 level 1 or 2 (or sometimes rarely 3) / Class 2 level 10 types of PC are the only types I have ever seen. Even in martial only multiclass PCs, I have never seen Cleric 6 / Wizard 7.

This makes sense for special class abilities (i.e. not double the number of special abilities over a single classed PC), but I wonder about spellcasting. Is it really a good multiclassing rule if virtually nobody ever takes a Cleric 6 / Druid 6? (and yes, there might be a few players out there that probably do, but we are basically taking a small handful out of millions of players). People view these multiple spell caster multiclass builds as totally undesirable.

The main question is: Is the gain of higher level prepped spells unbalanced with that of a single class PC?

Note: the PC is still limited to prepping the number of spells as per the current multiclassing rules. The sole difference is what level of spells the PC can prep.


Let's compare a Cleric 6 / Druid 6 to a Cleric 12 (assuming 20 Wisdom). The PC loses the ability to wear metal armor (i.e. loses 2 to 6 AC), loses 6 preps of Clerics spells, loses 2 level 3 and 2 level 4 autoprep domain spells, loses an ASI, is limited to destroying CR 1/2 instead of CR 2 undead, loses a Divine Domain feature (like +D8 to weapon damage), loses Divine Intervention and a cantrip. The PC gains 3 or 4 cantrips, gains the ability to prep 10 Druid spells of levels 1 to 6, gains either the ability to wild shape into a level CR 1/2 creature and 2 level 1 and 2 level 2 autoprep circle spells, or the ability to wild shape into a level CR 2 creature as a bonus action, and if circle druid, gains travel through certain difficult terrain and saves vs. magical plants.

Most of the low level abilities gained are not very impressive (low level wild shape hit points and attacks in high level encounters), it's mostly the druid spells that really matter. And the PC gave up quite a bit to gain those (i.e. the lower AC and the higher level Clerical abilities and higher level domain spells). I don't see this as particularly unbalanced. The PC gains a lot of versatility, but loses quite a bit as well. The multiclass PC is still limited to the same number of spell slots as the single class PC, s/he just gets a much larger pool of spells to choose from when prepping (and does gain 4 additional prep slots).


Cleric 6 / Wizard 6 over Cleric 12 would gain significant spell casting abilities and AC. A significant cost would be the MAD of having good Wis, good Int, and then fairly low Dex and Con, and Cha/Str typically being dump stats (e.g. starting 16 Int instead of 10 Int would be 7 point buy points lost elsewhere). There are some higher level Cleric abilities lost like 2 level 3 and 2 level 4 autoprep Domain spells and the Divine Domain feature, but the gain of casting Wizard spells would typically make up for those. There is a slight difference since the bonus to hit with spells and the DCs of spells would tend to be 1 or 2 lower for at least one of the classes, the AC would probably be 1 lower, an ASI is lost (and MAD ASI occurs), and the PC would probably have 18 fewer hit points on average.

Or alternatively, Cleric 6 / Wizard 6 over Wizard 12 would lose about 6 hit points (MAD Con being 2 less), lose an ASI (and MAD ASI occurs), lose an Arcane Tradition feature, loses 6 prepped Wizard spells, gain 1 or 2 points of AC, and gains 10 prepped Cleric spells, gains 2 level 1 and 2 level 2 domain autoprep spells, and a few minor Cleric abilities (like turning minor undead).


Ranger 6 / Paladin 6 has the same spell casting as current multiclassing rules.


Cleric 6 / Ranger 6 over Cleric 12 gains an attack per round, gains ~6 hit points, loses an ASI, loses casting 1 5th and 1 6th level spell per day, loses casting 6th level spells at all, loses level 3 and 4 Domain spells, loses Divine Domain features (i.e. a little less combat damage), loses a cantrip, gains Fighting Style, gains Ranger Archtype, gains some minor Ranger abilities, gains level 1 and 2 prepped Ranger spells.


All in all, none of this seems particularly unbalanced to me. Two full spell casting classes that cast totally different types of spells seem to gain the most, but those are also the classes that tend to experience MAD.



If you think that this is unbalanced, please give a build example of imbalance and don't just state an opinion. This isn't the type of house rule evaluation which can be analyzed with opinion. It needs examples.


Edit: Changed domain and circle spell levels from caster level to spell level to avoid confusion.
Your examples curiously say nothing on the, by far, most contentious issue - whether that Druid/Cleric and Cleric/Wizard gains access to level six druid/wizard AND cleric spells...

I can't understand why you would want to downplay this.

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CapnZapp

Legend
The bigger stumbling block to MCing is now the treatment of ASIs and Extra Attack, IMHO.
And even that isn't a big problem.

Sure, it remains weak for the 50/50 crowd, but if you can stomach taking 4 or 5 levels of one class in one go (and still call yourself multiclassed), neither of those represent an untoward hurdle (a hurdle yes, but one with a fair price)



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KarinsDad

Adventurer
Your examples curiously say nothing on the, by far, most contentious issue - whether that Druid/Cleric and Cleric/Wizard gains access to level six druid/wizard AND cleric spells...

I can't understand why you would want to downplay this.

I'm not trying to downplay anything.

Why don't you read this post which includes the modification in it due to the major problem Wizard 1 / Cleric X created in my original post? It answers your contentious issue.

http://www.enworld.org/forum/showth...e-Rule/page3&p=7168147&viewfull=1#post7168147
 


Tony Vargas

Legend
And even that isn't a big problem.

Sure, it remains weak for the 50/50 crowd, but if you can stomach taking 4 or 5 levels of one class in one go (and still call yourself multiclassed)...]
It's not the magnitude of the issue that perplexed me, but that it seems so unnecessary. Why not ASIs every 4 character levels with only the fighter's two extras called out as class geatures, for instance? Just to make the tables prettier?
 

mellored

Legend
I have a middle ground, as I think the multi-class rules are a little too harsh, but full spell lists would be a bit too much. 1 extra spell level per 5 levels of a caster.

So a wizard 5/cleric 5 can cast 4th level spells of each.
And a wizard 5/cleric 5/druid 5 can cast 5th level spells of each.
 

MoonSong

Rules-lawyering drama queen but not a munchkin
Ok, another idea from my personal heartbreaker. How about this?

You get the slots as calculated from your total class levels, and the amount and level of spells you can prepare is calculated as if you had all of your caster levels on your highest level class. All other classes you have don't add to that amount, and you cannot prepare more spells and higher level from those classes than what you can prepare from your levels on those classes alone. If levels are tied, you pick one class upon level up to be considered your highest level. Anyway no spell will appear out of nowhere on your spellbook and domain/circle bonus spells are limited to actual levels on the respective class.

I'm a mouthful sorry let's see with a few examples:

Wizard 19/Cleric 1. Int 20, Wis 16.- You get spell slots and prepare spells as if you were Wizard 20, so you prepare 25 spells and you can prepare up to 9th level wizard spells. Since you are a cleric 1 with wis 16, you can only prepare 4 1st level cleric spells. Those spells come out of your 25 prepared spells, but you still get the two domain spells.

Wizard 16/Cleric 4. Int 20, Wis 18.- You get spell slots and prepare spells as if you were Wizard 20, so you prepare 25 spells and you can prepare up to 9th level wizard spells. Since you are a cleric 4 with wis 18, you can only prepare 8 cleric spells but those can be up to 2nd level. Those spells come out of your 25 prepared spells but you still get your 4 domain spells.

Wizard 12/Cleric 8. Int 20, Wis 20.- You get spell slots and prepare spells as if you were Wizard 20, so you prepare 25 spells and you can prepare up to 9th level wizard spells. Since you are a cleric 8 with wis 20, you can only prepare 13 cleric spells but those can be up to 4th level. Those spells come out of your 25 prepared spells but you still get the 8 domain spells.

Wizard 10/Cleric 10.- Int 18, Wis 20.- You choose which class is the main one. Is you pick cleric you prepare 25 spells and you can prep up to 9th level cleric spells, and you can prepare up to 14 wizard spells out of those, but are limited to 5th level. You still get those 10 domain spells.

Of course we could work on the wording and how it works with known spells.
 

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