D&D 5E Multiclass vs. hybrid subclasses

[FrogReaver]

And yet, DPR-centric approaches completely overlook the power of the rogue 2/shadow monk 3, merely because it has average DPR. In reality it can TPK whole parties--it just takes more than three rounds to do so.

Simplistic analyses yield incorrect predictions.

I've already told ya that the rogue 2 shadow monk 3 wouldn't pester players in my campaigns much because we run stealth differently than you. He would rarely get sneak attack off because he would rarely be able to sneak in combat. I also only allow sneak attack to trigger with rogue weapons which unarmed I rule as not being rogue weapons. So in any event, I don't see why a rogue 5 wouldn't be scarier for the party based on your rules than a rogue 2/monk 3

 

[FrogReaver]

I would lean more towards question #1 and #3, but I will rephrase my question, if that helps. In 5E, there are a lot of various multiclass combinations that see common play. Some of these are simply one or two-level dips, which are clearly meant for basic starting proficiencies and abilities. But we also see other combinations that tend to be more conceptual (and mechanical to a lesser extent). Based upon what you have seen regarding these common multiclass combinations - again, excluding the MC dips - what new single-class or subclass concepts/archetypes do you think are lacking in 5E that would help alleviate some of the multiclass problems that you see?

So, to some extent every archetype I can think of exists in the game without any multiclassing. So I think you are still asking the wrong question and that's why I have such trouble providing a useful answer to it.

It's like someone that is satisfied with the basic classes and subclasses asking you what archetype is missing that you would need the multiclassing rules to help alleviate the single/class problems you see.

The best answer to both questions is that the issue is not a problem with archetypes. The archetypes are there and they already somewhat overlap. (cleric vs paladin, druid vs ranger, eldritch knight vs arcane trickster, sorcerer vs wizard vs warlock, barbarian vs fighter). It's more that within each archetype there are not enough degrees of freedom.

Multiclass helps with the degrees of freedom problem. However, it doesn't do it in a very smooth manner. The best way to resovle the problem is to have a class for each basic degree of freedom for the archetype you desire. More than 1 subclass in this case isn't even required.

 

[Aldarc]

I disagree. The bigger rogue buff at level 5 is the defensive ability, uncanny dodge. The sneak attack is helpful but 1d6+2d6+dex mod vs 1d6+3d6+dex mod isn't such a large gap that it cannot be surpassed by horizontal abilities. However, uncanny dodge is a strong enough ability that level 1-2 in most classes just doesn't give enough horizontal power to justify the loss in vertical power IMO.

And as I have already detailed, I do not think that uncanny dodge - though helpful as a defensive ability - surpasses with what a AT 3/Wiz 2 gains. Yes, uncanny dodge is a useful ability. You can use your reaction to half the damage of an attack done against you. If you are regularly having to use your reaction to trigger uncanny dodge, you may want to reconsider the tactics you are using as a rogue. OR, as I mentioned in my much earlier post on the AT 3/Wiz 2, you can use your greater spell selection and higher AC (assuming bladesinger) to avoid damage entirely. That strikes me as the better option. Because you have a few more wizard levels, you can prepare Shield or Mirror Image and turn that attack into a miss. You can even have Mage Armor for a bonus +1 to AC that's higher than your rogue's light armor. An Arcane Trickster can, of course, pick Shield or Mage Armor as one of their bonus spells, but they only get one at that level. But now you don't have to decide between Find Familiar, Shield, Mage Armor, or many of the other options floated for the Arcane Trickster's "other" spell. Spell slots are limited, of course, but are you really using uncanny dodge that often as a rogue? I can't say that I have nor have I seen it as often as that on other players' rogues. I find the preferable strategy is to avoid getting hit entirely with clever uses of my cunning actions and spells.

More strong mischaracterization of my position. DPR is not all D&D is about. However, it is an important aspect and consideration in D&D. This is evidenced by so many abilities in D&D directly impacting your DPR.

What you just did would be like me trying to classify your opinion as DPR doesn't matter at all. Such strawmen aren't helpful in having a productive discussion.

The improvement is relatively marginal in the grand scheme of things. If there is a one level dip then we are only talking about being without this ability for one level, which is far from insurmountable of a loss. It's not as if players will spend their entire career at 5th level and pining for 6th level. The tremendous degree of importance that you give to 5th level for your analyses seems grossly disproportionate to the relatively small amount of time spent at that level.

And being able to allow someone to eventually get what they want for their character doesn't mean it's not a terribly poor way of allowing them to "get what they want".

Let me put it this way.

A person that wants a melee combat specialist with spells, doesn't wanna play a level 2 fighter/level 3 wizard at level 5. He may do so because it's the only rules way of making his concept come to life currently. However, if there were classes that allowed him to get extra attack at level 5 and have some level 2 spells by then he would much rather play that class. With the right spell list, spells known and a unique spellslot progression and giving up on some of the fighter melee strengths like 2nd wind and action surge such a character could work very well and be balanced with other melee classes and would almost exclusively put away the thought of using a fighter wizard multiclass at low levels to create the character concept in question.

This almost seems like a truism though as opposed to any hard case against multiclassing itself. Of course, if there was something in a single class that gave a player what they wanted without having to multiclass they wouldn't multiclass. Also, if the class in question gave them the cantrips they wanted, then they would not have to take Magic Initiate or Spell Sniper. If the class in question gave them the proficiencies they wanted, then they would not multiclass or take the feats that gave them those proficiencies. This is not necessarily about what is stronger but about the player's path of least resistance to getting what their character concept wants/needs.

 

[FormerlyHemlock]

The improvement is relatively marginal in the grand scheme of things. If there is a one level dip then we are only talking about being without this ability for one level, which is far from insurmountable of a loss. It's not as if players will spend their entire career at 5th level and pining for 6th level. The tremendous degree of importance that you give to 5th level for your analyses seems grossly disproportionate to the relatively small amount of time spent at that level.

To be fair, FrogReaver's emphasis on 5th level analyses is rooted in the fact that his expressed opinion is also 5th level-centric: he has opined that multiclassing before 5th level is almost always a mistake, except for all the exceptions that have been mentioned in this thread. From this perspective it kind of makes sense to look at 5th level, although it would really make more sense to look at 2nd, 3rd, 4th, and 5th level.

From his perspective, looking at 6th level is a mistake because he doesn't mind multiclassing after 5th level. You're pointing out that a given combination could (e.g.) be good at 3rd and 4th level, a bit behind at 5th level, and ahead again at 6th level, and the player wouldn't mind at all that he had multiclassed at 3rd level. If so you're probably correct, but it's understandable if FrogReaver doesn't see it that way.

 

[Ovarwa]

So,

It makes sense to me that most multiclass combinations should have problems, sort of like randomly throwing ingredients into a pot. Lima beans and jello? Chorizo, spearmint gum and cauliflower? Salt and sugar and nothing else? Most combinations of anything don't work.

It also makes sense to me that there are a few levels at which being a single class really shines. We're talking about level 5 here, in which every exception the OP recognizes (without argument) to his premise that "multi-class sucks" involves the multiclass getting a second attack through some other means: Combos that leverage Eldritch Blast or SCAG melee cantrips or Moon2 bear. But an analysis at level 17 would have a similar problem: What really compares to a 9th level spell (available to half the classes in the game)? At level 20, those moon druid multiclasses no longer look so good! Naked level 20 barbarian with AC24? Etc.

But Fighter1/LoreX is a perfectly reasonable multiclass: It doesn't shine at level 5 compared to a normal Lore Bard, but players who take this route do so to increase their chances of surviving to reach Bard 5 at all. Taking Bard5 first ruins the big benefits: Con proficiency for sustaining spells, Heavy Armor (and maybe HAM) for better defense, probably another +1AC from a defensive style, 2 more hp...

Cleric1/WizardX seems reasonable too: Sure, at level 5 you have nothing that compares to a straight Wizard's level 3 spells. But maybe that's a worthwhile price for not being a squishy, for knowing all Cleric level 1 spells and for having more spells and more cantrips available to cast, and some other Cleric1 benefits.

Fighter1/WizardX? Again, less happy at level 5 but the Fighter level must come before Wiz5, and provides real benefits.

Various weird things, often involving Rogues (eg: get the drop using Assassin, quicken and twin a melee cantrip using Sorcerer, and then action surge to do that again in your first round.... or grab all the skills&cantrips using lots of dips...)

Finally, I think it is completely normal for multiclasses to be better at some levels and worse at others. Even single-classed characters have peaks and troughs that are not always in sync with each other, sometimes to the point of woe: Moon Druids are the poster boys of this kind of feast or famine, but other classes are not utterly immune.

All this said, I think it is reasonable to advise would-be optimizers to think carefully before delaying access to a class' signature or important ability: Is it really advisable to delay a second attack or 3rd level spell? Or to divert from a beeline to Paladin6 and one of the very best abilities in the game? (Getting a few points of dpr for one character feels good, but adding +3 or +4 to everyone's saving throws breaks Bounded Accuracy in your favor!) Sometimes the answer is yes, but that's not the way to bet. Because, you know, chocolate ice cream and high grade motor oil.

Anyway,

Ken

 

[FormerlyHemlock]

I like what you say, Ovarwa. Hope you don't mind me responding to two things that weren't your main point:

(eg: get the drop using Assassin, quicken and twin a melee cantrip using Sorcerer, and then action surge to do that again in your first round.... or grab all the skills&cantrips using lots of dips...)

[snip]

Or to divert from a beeline to Paladin6 and one of the very best abilities in the game? (Getting a few points of dpr for one character feels good, but adding +3 or +4 to everyone's saving throws breaks Bounded Accuracy in your favor!)

1.) Nitpick: Action Surge doesn't let you Quicken + Twin a second cantrip. You get another action, not another bonus action + action. Fighter/Assassin/Sorcs FYI.

2.) RE: Paladin saves, it's not breaking bounded accuracy, because bounded accuracy is a DM-side philosophy. Rodney Thompson invented bounded accuracy, and the way he described it was (emphasis added):

The basic premise behind the bounded accuracy system is simple: we make no assumptions on the DM's side of the game that the player's attack and spell accuracy, or their defenses, increase as a result of gaining levels. Instead, we represent the difference in characters of various levels primarily through their hit points, the amount of damage they deal, and the various new abilities they have gained. Characters can fight tougher monsters not because they can finally hit them, but because their damage is sufficient to take a significant chunk out of the monster's hit points; likewise, the character can now stand up to a few hits from that monster without being killed easily, thanks to the character's increased hit points. Furthermore, gaining levels grants the characters new capabilities, which go much farther toward making your character feel different than simple numerical increases.

Now, note that I said that we make no assumptions on the DM's side of the game about increased accuracy and defenses. This does not mean that the players do not gain bonuses to accuracy and defenses. It does mean, however, that we do not need to make sure that characters advance on a set schedule, and we can let each class advance at its own appropriate pace. Thus, wizards don't have to gain a +10 bonus to weapon attack rolls just for reaching a higher level in order to keep participating; if wizards never gain an accuracy bonus, they can still contribute just fine to the ongoing play experience.

When the Paladin gives his buddies a save bonus, it doesn't really break bounded accuracy at all. He's just doing what he's intended to do.

Also, in practice I find that there's a pretty severe limitation to the Paladin's aura: the party has to all clump up next to the paladin. If you're fighting a dragon, you can either huddle next to the paladin to make both of you (all four/five of you?) a more tempting target with slightly higher saving Dex saves; or you can scatter so that the dragon's breath weapon would only hit one or two PCs. Same thing applies to mind flayers, magma mephits, Flameskulls, and even basilisks and medusas. It's nice to have the Paladin's aura on tap just in case you get into a close-quarters battle, but not having to make a saving throw at all beats making a saving throw at a +5 bonus.

So in practice I have seen the Paladin's aura be best at two things: protecting the paladin himself and maybe one other vulnerable PC on the front line; and making the paladin more resilient to friendly fire. E.g. a Paladin of Devotion 7+ can simply ignore Hypnotic Pattern because it's a charm effect, and that's kind of neat for close-quarters tanking against a mob of cranium rats or orcs or umber hulks/whatnot.

But despite its shortcomings, I agree that the Paladin's aura is one of the most desirable abilities in the game. Arguably Bardic Inspiration is tactically "better" in a pinch, but the Paladin aura is more attractive emotionally because it's always on and more reliable. It's a good security blanket.

 

[FrogReaver]

And as I have already detailed, I do not think that uncanny dodge - though helpful as a defensive ability - surpasses with what a AT 3/Wiz 2 gains. Yes, uncanny dodge is a useful ability. You can use your reaction to half the damage of an attack done against you. If you are regularly having to use your reaction to trigger uncanny dodge, you may want to reconsider the tactics you are using as a rogue. OR, as I mentioned in my much earlier post on the AT 3/Wiz 2, you can use your greater spell selection and higher AC (assuming bladesinger) to avoid damage entirely. That strikes me as the better option. Because you have a few more wizard levels, you can prepare Shield or Mirror Image and turn that attack into a miss. You can even have Mage Armor for a bonus +1 to AC that's higher than your rogue's light armor. An Arcane Trickster can, of course, pick Shield or Mage Armor as one of their bonus spells, but they only get one at that level. But now you don't have to decide between Find Familiar, Shield, Mage Armor, or many of the other options floated for the Arcane Trickster's "other" spell. Spell slots are limited, of course, but are you really using uncanny dodge that often as a rogue? I can't say that I have nor have I seen it as often as that on other players' rogues. I find the preferable strategy is to avoid getting hit entirely with clever uses of my cunning actions and spells.

Rogue 5
Stat/Feat
+1d6 sneak attack
uncanny dodge

Rogue 3/Wizard 2
+2 level 2 spell slots
+1 level 1 spell slot
+1 level 1 spell slot on short rest
more level 1 wizard spells known
Whatever Wizard level 2 feature you want
Wizard cantrips

I still can't say I view it as comparable... but it's close enough. I'll give it my blessing as a solid pre-level 5 multiclass combo.

 

[FrogReaver]

The improvement is relatively marginal in the grand scheme of things. If there is a one level dip then we are only talking about being without this ability for one level, which is far from insurmountable of a loss. It's not as if players will spend their entire career at 5th level and pining for 6th level. The tremendous degree of importance that you give to 5th level for your analyses seems grossly disproportionate to the relatively small amount of time spent at that level.

Of course players won't stay level 5 forever. I'll even add that there is no other level that has a gap quite so wide as level 4 to level 5.

But, you can't just act like your level 6 multiclassed character will catch up to my level 5 character because comparing a level 5 to 6 character doesn't mean much. You have to compare level 6 to level 6. This likely gives some multiclass characters a slight edge because most classes level 6 abilities aren't very strong.

But then we have to look at the fall behind at level 7 when the single class gets level 4 spells and the multiclass does not. Then we have to look at 9 and etc.

Or if it's a fighter or barbarian we look at the level 8 and 11 abilities and determine you fall behind again at those levels, even if you caught up at 6 or 7.

So level 5 is the big drop and after that multiclassing tends to cycle back and forth regarding whether the multiclass combo is strong or the single class one.

 

[FrogReaver]

This almost seems like a truism though as opposed to any hard case against multiclassing itself. Of course, if there was something in a single class that gave a player what they wanted without having to multiclass they wouldn't multiclass. Also, if the class in question gave them the cantrips they wanted, then they would not have to take Magic Initiate or Spell Sniper. If the class in question gave them the proficiencies they wanted, then they would not multiclass or take the feats that gave them those proficiencies. This is not necessarily about what is stronger but about the player's path of least resistance to getting what their character concept wants/needs.

Thank you for acknowledging my point. Ideally Single class / subclass is the better way to go to get the character one wants to play. It's just there has to already be a class designed around the exact concept you want before this works. Multiclassing is the easier and quicker solution but doesn't yield as high of quality.

 

[FrogReaver]

To be fair, FrogReaver's emphasis on 5th level analyses is rooted in the fact that his expressed opinion is also 5th level-centric: he has opined that multiclassing before 5th level is almost always a mistake, except for all the exceptions that have been mentioned in this thread. From this perspective it kind of makes sense to look at 5th level, although it would really make more sense to look at 2nd, 3rd, 4th, and 5th level.

From his perspective, looking at 6th level is a mistake because he doesn't mind multiclassing after 5th level. You're pointing out that a given combination could (e.g.) be good at 3rd and 4th level, a bit behind at 5th level, and ahead again at 6th level, and the player wouldn't mind at all that he had multiclassed at 3rd level. If so you're probably correct, but it's understandable if FrogReaver doesn't see it that way.

Thank you. There is a lot of truth in what you said.

I would characterize most multiclass combos this way: They tend to be slightly stronger at levels 1-4 and then fall way behind at level 5 and then they generally have a back and forth moment as you scale up till level 11 and shortly after that the multiclass option become better till level 17ish-20ish.