Multiclassing and ECLs

[Viktyr Gehrig]

In the interest of smoothing out certain parts of the class system, I've worked out a houserule to control BAB progression. Classes that give less than full BAB progression give a fraction at each level, instead of a pattern of whole numbers, like so:

Ftr/Bbn/Pal/Rgr: +1 BAB/level
Clr/Brd/Rog/Drd: +3/4 BAB/level
Sor/Wiz : +1/2 BAB/level

Anything less than a full point of BAB is rounded down. So, a 1 Clr/1 Wiz, instead of having a BAB of 0 has +5/4 BAB, which is effectively +1. (I got the idea from d20 Modern, where almost no class has full BAB.)

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The advancement chart in Chapter 3 of the PHB includes entries for Saving Throws, both Good and Poor.

Instead of stacking all saving throw bonuses (and allowing you to stack similar classes for huge bonuses, or take a level of Monk for a quick +2 to everything), you stack levels of Good and Poor saves.

A 1st level Fighter has 1 level of Good Fortitude and 1 level each of Poor Reflexes and Poor Will. If he added a level of Rogue, he'd then have 1 level of Good Fortitude, 1 level of Poor Fortitude, 1 level of Good Reflexes, 1 level of Poor Reflexes, and 2 levels of Poor Will. If he added a level of Ranger, he'd then have two levels of Good Fortitude and level of Poor Fortitude, two levels of Good Reflex and one level of Bad, and three levels of Poor Will.

Instead of having a +4 bonus to Fortitude, +4 Reflex, and +0 Will, he'd have +3 Fortitude, +3 Reflex, and +1 Will.

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This one has been bothering me for some time-- the drastic difference in quality of racial HD for different creature types. Humanoid, Giant, and Plant worst of all, and Dragons and Outsiders better than most class levels. (Dragons and Outsiders also get a nasty boost out of Monk saving throws, though this is addressed above.)

Instead of counting racial HD towards ECL, your race HD contribute to your LA. Better hit dice count more towards level adjustment than worse. (This is similar to Urban Arcana ECL, as creatures with several HD only apply their level adjustment.)

I haven't settled the exact amounts, yet, but these are what I'm thinking of right now:

Humanoid, Giant, Plant, Aberration, Elemental, Ooze, Vermin: 1/2 level per HD
Animal, Magical Beast, Monstrous Humanoid, Fey: 1 level per HD
Dragon, Outsider: 1 1/2 level per HD

Constructs and Undead are odd, since they lack CON bonuses and have large lists of immunities. I am thinking that they could easily count as 1/2 level per HD, but they need an extra level adjustment for their resistances and immunities.

These level adjustments would of course be adjusted by special abilities, imbalanced ability scores, or the like. The intent is not to make most monstrous characters easier to play (some would have lower total ECL), but to make hit dice of different types more accurately their value.

Also, for Dragons and Outsiders, whose LA would be going up considerably, acid testing might be required to lower it back down to appropriate levels.

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Any opinions so far? Have I valued the creature types incorrectly? Any suggestions for the appropriate value of Construct/Undead HD?

 

[CRGreathouse]

The trouble with LA is that it's not balanced apart from the HD. A 5-HD fey with good special abilities might have LA +1, but really that's just anotehr way to say ECL +6... it would not be balanced with 5 other HD (say, dragon HD) or with 5 class levels.

LA is really a stupid term. I *think* it's intended purpose was to clarify matters, but it's really made things difficult, mainly because it's based, in part, on the racial HD of the creature.

 

[MarauderX]

I would guess that Monks would be in the 3/4 BAB advancement range. I like your rules, although applying them means multiclass characters that are tougher earlier when it really matters. I would love to apply them to any game I am a player in, but wouldn't allow it as a DM in order to keep 'penalties' for multiclassing.

 

[Viktyr Gehrig]

I would guess that Monks would be in the 3/4 BAB advancement range. I like your rules, although applying them means multiclass characters that are tougher earlier when it really matters. I would love to apply them to any game I am a player in, but wouldn't allow it as a DM in order to keep 'penalties' for multiclassing.

I don't think multiclassed characters need any more penalties-- and the Saving Throw fix takes care of Saving Throw stacking, one of the more abusive tricks to pull with multiclassing.

 

[Viktyr Gehrig]

The trouble with LA is that it's not balanced apart from the HD. A 5-HD fey with good special abilities might have LA +1, but really that's just anotehr way to say ECL +6... it would not be balanced with 5 other HD (say, dragon HD) or with 5 class levels.

LA is really a stupid term. I *think* it's intended purpose was to clarify matters, but it's really made things difficult, mainly because it's based, in part, on the racial HD of the creature.

Yeah. I'm not really clarifying anything, but I hope I'm making it fairer. By setting LA values that reflect the relative value of those hit dice, it should make things shake out more or less properly. The only problem is, it makes quite a few popular monsters cheaper, while making others more expensive-- so the whole ECL rating system would have to be rechecked. (Or, at least, rechecked for every monster a PC submits.)

 

[ciaran00]

You know, for a while I thought that multiclassing penalties were appropriate too... but this is 3e, and the penalty is INCLUDED in the fact that you're not advancing in another class (that, and the ever steep XP progression). Monsters + class levels with all bonuses stacking therein is a more consistent system... Use LA as penalty. Don't penalise for having levels, too.

ciaran