Multiple attacks, immediate reactions, and conditions

[deleteme123456]

Suppose you had a way to impose a condition such as blind or dazed as part of an attack power that granted multiple attacks (it would probably be something on a magic item you have, I don't know if any such thing really exists, but pretend it does because this is WoTC and eventually it will). Suppose you are a ranger.

Question 1:
Use twin strike, and make your first attack roll. Do you resolve that roll now, allowing you to choose to apply the condition (thereby gaining Combat Advantage on the 2nd), or do you wait until you've rolled both attacks and both damage rolls? [This may be opinion; I'm not clear if there is good RAW to support an argument but feel free to quote whatever you'd like ]

Question 2:
Similarly, if a monster (typically Elite/Solo) has "Immediate reaction, when missed by a melee attack, at-will", does that trigger in response to Twin Strike...:
A. After the ranger swings and misses with the first attack, possibly imposing conditions such as blind or weakened that may apply to the second attack
B. After the ranger takes both attacks, so long as either misses
C. After the ranger takes both attacks, so long as both miss

Question 3:
Assume that the answer to 2 is A. If you disagree, you may skip this question. As part of the counterattack, the monster has a push 1 square effect, taking you out of range of the monster based on your current melee reach. Can you use your second attack:
A. against a creature you are now adjacent to
B. against the original creature because you used the power while he was in range
C. either A or B
D. against nothing because there are no legal targets based on when you used the power and where you are now

Question 4:
Using Dragon 368, you picked up a feat which allows you to shift one square after the first attack in Twin Strike under the right conditions (I'm not reproducing the article here. ). You meet those conditions. How much of your attack do you have to "declare" at once? Which of the following would you allow?
A. "I will attack Creature A, shift to this square, and attack Creature A again."
B. "I will attack Creature A. If creature A dies, I will shift to this square and attack creature B [not currently in melee range], else I will shift to that square and reattack creature A."
C. "I will attack Creature A. After seeing how much damage I do to it, I will decide what to do next."
D. (Write your own)

Edit: Crossposted to Gleemax. http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?p=17310224#post17310224

 

[Mort_Q]

Cue the attack is not a defined term in 4e discussion. And ...... GO!

 

[Hypersmurf]

There's a lot of room for confusion in here, I think.

My understanding is that the Target entry is determined before the Attack entry begins. So Twin Strike is "One or two creatures" - you have to decide if you're attacking one or two creatures before you start rolling, and which creature(s) that is.

If you select one creature as your target, and one attack kills the opponent, the other attack is wasted; you can't reassign it. Attacks that you can make decisions about contingent upon earlier attacks in the same power are Secondary Attacks, and have Secondary Targets.

Also, a power like Thundertusk Boar Strike suggests that the two attacks are simultaneous; if you can make two melee attacks, and each hit pushes the target one square, and the attacks resolve sequentially? Then if the first hits, you won't be able to reach the target with the second. If they resolve simultaneously, there's no problem; roll both dice, and for each one that hits, push the target one square (or more, if both hit).

However, then we have PHB p268: For example, if a power lets you attack as an immediate reaction when an attack hits you, your action happens before the monster that hit you can take any other action. If a monster has a power that lets it make two attack rolls against you as a standard action, and the first one hits, you can use an immediate reaction before the next attack roll.

Which suggests that two attack rolls as part of a single power occur sequentially, not simultaneously. Which makes Thundertusk Boar Strike problematical with two non-reach melee weapons.

So for your first question - p268 suggests that you would apply the blind condition after the first attack, and combat advantage would apply for the second. Thundertusk Boar Strike implies the opposite, because "render opponent blind" and "push opponent 1 square" should resolve identically... and if "push opponent 1 square" resolves before the second attack, the second attack is impossible.

Question 2: p268 makes it clear that the immediate reaction can occur after the first of the two attacks.

Question 3: My understanding is that the answer is D; the immediate reaction has invalidated the remainder of your action.

Question 4: I believe it's A, because otherwise, Twin Strike would need to be rewritten with a secondary target.

See Cut and Run (Rgr 3) for an example - target one or two creatures, make two attacks, shift X squares after the first or second attack. I believe that you cannot make one attack, then decide who your target for the second attack is.

-Hyp.

 

[deleteme123456]

Thanks, that's fairly close to our line of thinking, although our Dm is willing to be generous with a reaction that pushes you out of range and allow you to redeclare remaining attacks.

What about a revision to question 4, another option:
"I will attack creature A, shift 1, and then attack creature B (not currently in melee range)" ... removes the conditional, all declaration is upfront, but creature B is probably an illegal target, I would think... but let's go to Deft Strike. If the "target" of your attack is something you don't even have line of effect to (around a corner), but you will have LOE to after movement, then how is that a legal target? (WotC CS for whatever it's worth, probably not much, has said that does work)

 

[DracoSuave]

Suppose you had a way to impose a condition such as blind or dazed as part of an attack power that granted multiple attacks (it would probably be something on a magic item you have, I don't know if any such thing really exists, but pretend it does because this is WoTC and eventually it will). Suppose you are a ranger.

Question 1:
Use twin strike, and make your first attack roll. Do you resolve that roll now, allowing you to choose to apply the condition (thereby gaining Combat Advantage on the 2nd), or do you wait until you've rolled both attacks and both damage rolls? [This may be opinion; I'm not clear if there is good RAW to support an argument but feel free to quote whatever you'd like ]

Declare all targets, resolve all attacks. The only time powers are sequential is when you have secondary/tertiary attacks, or otherwise stated.

Question 2:
Similarly, if a monster (typically Elite/Solo) has "Immediate reaction, when missed by a melee attack, at-will", does that trigger in response to Twin Strike...:
A. After the ranger swings and misses with the first attack, possibly imposing conditions such as blind or weakened that may apply to the second attack
B. After the ranger takes both attacks, so long as either misses
C. After the ranger takes both attacks, so long as both miss

No movement is involved, so the reaction occurs after all the attacks are resolved.

Question 3:
Assume that the answer to 2 is A. If you disagree, you may skip this question.

Thank you! I shall!

Question 4:
Using Dragon 368, you picked up a feat which allows you to shift one square after the first attack in Twin Strike under the right conditions (I'm not reproducing the article here. ). You meet those conditions. How much of your attack do you have to "declare" at once? Which of the following would you allow?
A. "I will attack Creature A, shift to this square, and attack Creature A again."
B. "I will attack Creature A. If creature A dies, I will shift to this square and attack creature B [not currently in melee range], else I will shift to that square and reattack creature A."
C. "I will attack Creature A. After seeing how much damage I do to it, I will decide what to do next."
D. (Write your own)

In this case, if the conditions apply, it's impossible not to resolve them one at a time, so that's what you do.

 

[Hypersmurf]

No movement is involved, so the reaction occurs after all the attacks are resolved.

Do you feel that p268 doesn't apply in this case?

"If a monster has a power that lets it make two attack rolls against you as a standard action, and the first one hits, you can use an immediate reaction before the next attack roll."

Let's say "a monster" in this case is a ranger with Twin Strike.

-Hyp.

 

[DracoSuave]

Immo stand corrected.

 

[Hypersmurf]

Immo stand corrected.

I'm still stymied by the interaction with Thundertusk Boar Strike, though.

Multiple primary attacks happen at the same time.

But an immediate reaction to the first attack happens after the first attack (which happens at the same time as the second attack), but before the second attack (which happens at the same time as the first attack).

And yet the second attack happens before the first attack is resolved, since otherwise the Push from the first attack will invalidate the second attack.

Urgh.

-Hyp.

 

[DracoSuave]

Five Missile Dance makes that worse, by tossing in pushes, knocking prone, immobilize AND shifting.

 

[Danceofmasks]

I reckon thundertusk boar strike is worded badly.
Say the ranger has a wis mod of 0 ...

If both attacks hit, he gets to push a total of 1.
For each hit, he gets to push 1.
1 + 1 != 1

I'd say the amount of pushing was meant to be determined after both attacks are resolved.