The Grackle
First Post
simp_99 said:
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???Wierd.
Mutant/Superhero Gaming
- Thread starter malien
- Start date
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???Wierd.
The Grackle
First Post
It would have a very differrent feel, that's for sure.
Spells would be tough...
Spells would be tough...
HeapThaumaturgist
First Post
I have both M&M and Blood and Vigilance.
Hrm.
I'll say BnV is a really good choice for maintaining transparency to d20 Modern. If you're intending to use a lower-level super, with firearms and more than a handful of skills, I'd say that it's a nifty system to use. I also like to tag it together with Action Point rules from Grim Tales (basically APs that refresh after each "arc". Keeps from having to hand out levels constantly).
Mutants and Masterminds is a good system for higher-level, more abstract, bright-shiney supers, I think. Unlike many advocates of the system, though, I think it has alot of problems for specific things. For one, its not transparent about the amount of GM-Dependance is built into the system. The rules are there, but in the end it's in the GM's corner to hand-balance each and every PC, because there are buckets of abusable, questionable, and sometimes-broken powers. M&M is very fast-and-loose and is WONDERFUL for building any PC concept your heart desires ... but, like most point-based systems (and perhaps moreso than some) it can be abused and may get tiresome quickly if your players get into the inner workings of the system and start trying to make "the best character".
I really like both systems. I'm using BnV more often (weekly, as opposed to off-and-on) because my group finds itself more comfortable with BnV on the whole. I'm trying to get them to open up to M&M more, and trying to get a regular Nocturnals game booted up and running.
--fje
Hrm.
I'll say BnV is a really good choice for maintaining transparency to d20 Modern. If you're intending to use a lower-level super, with firearms and more than a handful of skills, I'd say that it's a nifty system to use. I also like to tag it together with Action Point rules from Grim Tales (basically APs that refresh after each "arc". Keeps from having to hand out levels constantly).
Mutants and Masterminds is a good system for higher-level, more abstract, bright-shiney supers, I think. Unlike many advocates of the system, though, I think it has alot of problems for specific things. For one, its not transparent about the amount of GM-Dependance is built into the system. The rules are there, but in the end it's in the GM's corner to hand-balance each and every PC, because there are buckets of abusable, questionable, and sometimes-broken powers. M&M is very fast-and-loose and is WONDERFUL for building any PC concept your heart desires ... but, like most point-based systems (and perhaps moreso than some) it can be abused and may get tiresome quickly if your players get into the inner workings of the system and start trying to make "the best character".
I really like both systems. I'm using BnV more often (weekly, as opposed to off-and-on) because my group finds itself more comfortable with BnV on the whole. I'm trying to get them to open up to M&M more, and trying to get a regular Nocturnals game booted up and running.
--fje
Heap,
Great point, and an important one for the guy asking the question to hear. M&M is, in my opinion, a wonderful system -- but I've got a good gaming group and the time to go over their character concepts and make sure that nobody is useless or broken.
Any experienced gamer who spends a day or two reading M&M will be able to figure out how to make one of the classic broken characters, or some new monstrosity ("Yes, I'm incorporeal, and can only be harmed by energy attacks; also, I have Absorption(Energy), which I use to channel enormous blasts of radiant power back at my enemies every time somebody tries to shoot me. And I have this linked attack form, a combination of Snare, Stun, Dazzle, Mental Blast, Paralyze, and Drain, that's triggered whenever anyone tries to use a Mental Attack on me. I'd like to take "Brooding Loner" as a 10-point weakness, too, if that's okay.")
The GM has to be involved in the character creation process to make sure that that doesn't happen.
The GM also has to make sure that he doesn't kill the heroes. If the heroes are all strongmen and energy blasters, a mentalist with good defenses is not a fun challenge. He's a death sentence.
However, if you do have the time to deal with that stuff, I'll maintain that it's great for 4-color heroics.
Right now, I'm using it, as I said, for a swashbuckler game, but my group occasionally takes a break to play a good old-fashioned game of Justice Pals, which is... fairly tongue-in-cheek.
Doctor Myopic: Welcome, Justice Pals! I wanted you to come see my new robot.
Jinx: Wow, that's great!
Jem: It's not going to go crazy and attack us like the last one did, is it?
Doctor Myopic: No, no, nonono... I've discovered a way to bypass the Hawking Threshold* and stop the robot from becoming sentient and trying to kill all human life. It's a circuit that prevents the robot from thinking of any "Kill the humans"-related idea!
Jinx: Wow, good thinking, Doc! There's no way that could fail!
Robot: Must -NOT- kill humans. Must -NOT- kill humans.
Jem: So... it's just a circuit that stops it from becoming sentient and trying to destroy all life?
Doctor Myopic: That's right. As long as the circuit doesn't get wet, we're all perfectly safe. In fact, to make extra sure, I've protected the circuit behind a flimsy plastic panel. There's no way that FrankenHalSkynet can go crazy and try to kill us.
(sproing)
Jem: Hey, Doc, some flimsy plastic panel on the robot's chest just popped open.
Doctor Myopic: Oh, dear. It always does that.
Jem: Hey, is it starting to rain?
Robot: Must... BZZRT! ...kill humans. Must kill humans.
Jinx: Aw, man!
* The Hawking Threshold is the computational power point at which an artificial intelligence becomes self-aware. In comic-book rules, this means that it immediately decides that the smartest and most productive thing to do is to obliterate mankind as quickly as conveniently possible.
Great point, and an important one for the guy asking the question to hear. M&M is, in my opinion, a wonderful system -- but I've got a good gaming group and the time to go over their character concepts and make sure that nobody is useless or broken.
Any experienced gamer who spends a day or two reading M&M will be able to figure out how to make one of the classic broken characters, or some new monstrosity ("Yes, I'm incorporeal, and can only be harmed by energy attacks; also, I have Absorption(Energy), which I use to channel enormous blasts of radiant power back at my enemies every time somebody tries to shoot me. And I have this linked attack form, a combination of Snare, Stun, Dazzle, Mental Blast, Paralyze, and Drain, that's triggered whenever anyone tries to use a Mental Attack on me. I'd like to take "Brooding Loner" as a 10-point weakness, too, if that's okay.")
The GM has to be involved in the character creation process to make sure that that doesn't happen.
The GM also has to make sure that he doesn't kill the heroes. If the heroes are all strongmen and energy blasters, a mentalist with good defenses is not a fun challenge. He's a death sentence.
However, if you do have the time to deal with that stuff, I'll maintain that it's great for 4-color heroics.
Right now, I'm using it, as I said, for a swashbuckler game, but my group occasionally takes a break to play a good old-fashioned game of Justice Pals, which is... fairly tongue-in-cheek.
Doctor Myopic: Welcome, Justice Pals! I wanted you to come see my new robot.
Jinx: Wow, that's great!
Jem: It's not going to go crazy and attack us like the last one did, is it?
Doctor Myopic: No, no, nonono... I've discovered a way to bypass the Hawking Threshold* and stop the robot from becoming sentient and trying to kill all human life. It's a circuit that prevents the robot from thinking of any "Kill the humans"-related idea!
Jinx: Wow, good thinking, Doc! There's no way that could fail!
Robot: Must -NOT- kill humans. Must -NOT- kill humans.
Jem: So... it's just a circuit that stops it from becoming sentient and trying to destroy all life?
Doctor Myopic: That's right. As long as the circuit doesn't get wet, we're all perfectly safe. In fact, to make extra sure, I've protected the circuit behind a flimsy plastic panel. There's no way that FrankenHalSkynet can go crazy and try to kill us.
(sproing)
Jem: Hey, Doc, some flimsy plastic panel on the robot's chest just popped open.
Doctor Myopic: Oh, dear. It always does that.
Jem: Hey, is it starting to rain?
Robot: Must... BZZRT! ...kill humans. Must kill humans.
Jinx: Aw, man!
* The Hawking Threshold is the computational power point at which an artificial intelligence becomes self-aware. In comic-book rules, this means that it immediately decides that the smartest and most productive thing to do is to obliterate mankind as quickly as conveniently possible.
Emiricol
Registered User
M&M is my system of choice, but as I've said before there are other systems that work better for specific game types. D20Modern-compatible is one of those types.
As to whether M&M is good for grim&gritty low-powered games, I'll state that it is. However, as has been said above, M&M does require the DM to take an active role in keeping PCs viable, neither too good nor useless. Which to my mind is a good thing anyway. It speaks to the flexibility of the system.
So ultimately I think it depends on what kind of game you plan on running. It'd be easier to discuss which systems are good bets if we knew more about what kind of game you'd like.
As to whether M&M is good for grim&gritty low-powered games, I'll state that it is. However, as has been said above, M&M does require the DM to take an active role in keeping PCs viable, neither too good nor useless. Which to my mind is a good thing anyway. It speaks to the flexibility of the system.
So ultimately I think it depends on what kind of game you plan on running. It'd be easier to discuss which systems are good bets if we knew more about what kind of game you'd like.
Teflon Billy
Explorer
GlassJaw said:
I heartily agree. But people will tell you that character genertion is a snap, and frankly--if you have anything in mind but the most basic builds-- it isn't.
As written, the character generation/power customization rules are not particularly well-written.
The good news is, the author himself answers questions quickly and thoroughly over at www.mutantsandmasterminds.com, and the community there is incredibly friendly and helpful.
Now, having complained about character generation, I will loudly praise the actual gamplay: it's easy, fast-paced and (thanks to the hero point mechanic) nicely models superhero comics rather than just "tactical Combat with Superpowers" that I've seen a lot of super RPG's turn into.
HeapThaumaturgist
First Post
Teflon Billy said:
Indeed. As much as I like Blood and Vigilance, for my specific game (which isn't pure supers) I've got a bucket full of house rules. We had a character who took a bunch of tactical HtH combat feats ... started slowing the game down considerably in the "Fight The Mook" Phase. So I took out AoOs entirely (ala M&M) and worked with the player to rebuild the PC in another direction.
We also have an expanded list of "What To Do With Action Points" system taken from Grim Tales (along with some house ones ... 2 APs will allow for a dramatic rewrite, and 1 AP with a Reputation roll will allow for pulling one of Doc's gadgets out of the pocket. "Because I figured I'd need this suction-cup throwing-star tracking device!").
We also replaced Initiative rolls with playing cards. I cannot stress how much this sped up the game. No more scribbling numbers, and we can redeal initiative each round (making things more unpredictable). We use the face value of the card and each 4 points of Iniative bonus gives another card (taking the highest dealt). -4 Init. you get 2 cards and take the worst of the two. Jokers go first in the round and get a free AP to do with as they please (even mooks, which is fun!). Suicide King gets -2 on all actions in that round. I really like it and have actually used the system to replace init in ALL of my d20 games.
--fje
Wow! I leave the post up, sleep and work, and then... 
Thanks for all the replies, you've all given me some things to consider. I think I can safely say that it's a call between Blood and Vigilance and Mutants and Masterminds...
As to what sort of game we want to run? I'm not entirely sure, but I think I can say it'd be more to the level of what you read in a comic book. The whole reason we want to play a superhero game is because we're on a kick of X-Men cartoons (and the movies) and related stuff.
I mean, heck, I even dug out my old comic books and read them over again, and I haven't done that in some years. So, yeah, definately the sort of things you see in a book like X-Men, and the like.
At least to start. You never know, we might end up wanting to tone it down after a while. Change is the spice of life, right?
Thanks for all the replies, you've all given me some things to consider. I think I can safely say that it's a call between Blood and Vigilance and Mutants and Masterminds...
As to what sort of game we want to run? I'm not entirely sure, but I think I can say it'd be more to the level of what you read in a comic book. The whole reason we want to play a superhero game is because we're on a kick of X-Men cartoons (and the movies) and related stuff.
I mean, heck, I even dug out my old comic books and read them over again, and I haven't done that in some years. So, yeah, definately the sort of things you see in a book like X-Men, and the like.
At least to start. You never know, we might end up wanting to tone it down after a while. Change is the spice of life, right?
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