D&D 4E My 4e problem.

[Michael Morris]

I've read over the 4e players handbook, and ran the system for 6 weeks, and the group mutinied and switched games entirely to Scion for about a 6 month run. We started back in D&D but the players want to go to 3e. That's what we're playing, but I still haven't quite given up on 4e. However, my setting poses significant translation issues.

In short, alignments matter. There are five - Abora, Balcra, Shunra, Sodra, Valra; and they roughly correspond to the MtG colors Green, Blue, Red, Black, White in that order, though these days it's very rare for me to refer to an alignment by it's color (further two of the colors are switched: White to Gold, Black to Silver).

My original plan before 4e came out was that each power would be linked to the alignment it best reflected. The problem is this - whole classes sometimes stay within the boundaries or one or two colors. For instance both the Paladin and Cleric classes are more or less Valran, which an occasional dive into the other four but not enough of a dive to make a non-Valran aligned cleric or paladin possible.

If I create new powers to round out the classes I would need to make at least 2 per level per color to round things out. This comes out to - ahem - a LOT of powers that need to be created to fill the wholes - more than even I fill comfortable with making up without testing.

The other alternative is just to surrender the point and tell players that they cannot play certain classes without having the touch of certain alignments (or to reduce confusion and stay in line with the GSL - "ethoses" since you can't redefine the crappy alignment system of 4e). This isn't a *huge* problem since this system is non-exclusive. A character can (usually does) have multiple ethoses, even pairings that on the face of it are contradictory.

The other tact would be to create powers tied to no class that could be taken up if the character's ethos matched a prerequisite. However, if I set previous powers as a prerequisite I again hit the roadblock that some classes can't pick up some powers.

If I abandon the schema entirely then I lose part of the setting's identity, which frankly 4e isn't worth. I'm going to pick up the PHB II and see if it gives me some ideas on how to deal with this.

Even if I do go the first route that would mean creating 3x as much material as I had to create to make 2e Player's Option usable for me. Course, once done it would definitely be something to see. Hmm...

Thoughts or ideas anyone?

 

[Bayuer]

Well, maybe you wouldn't like this idea, but why you complicating things so much? color - aligment is nice, but leave powers as they are. Anyway if you have time do your own powers but is just too much work I think. Let the players play as they want.

 

[Michael Morris]

Well, maybe you wouldn't like this idea, but why you complicating things so much? color - aligment is nice, but leave powers as they are. Anyway if you have time do your own powers but is just too much work I think. Let the players play as they want.

Which means 3.5e, because the only way we as a group are going to move into 4e is if the world which I've worked on for 15 years and they've been playing in for 5 "feels" right. Ethos being consequentially tied to spell choices in 3e is a major part of that feel.

I'm perfectly happy with that choice, but I would like to transition to 4e at some point because it is a more interesting system. I can't do that unless I can mold it to fit the world. I will not cop out like WotC did with Forgotten Realms and destroy my world to make it fit 4e.

 

[Roger]

I'm not entirely sure what you're trying to pull off here, but based on what I've heard, I might be tempted to ditch the base classes entirely and replace them with the ethos. Re-assign class features and powers to ethos as desired. Use existing multiclassing subsystem to handle mixed viewpoints.



Cheers,
Roger

 

[Tequila Sunrise]

In short, alignments matter. There are five - Abora, Balcra, Shunra, Sodra, Valra; and they roughly correspond to the MtG colors Green, Blue, Red, Black, White in that order, though these days it's very rare for me to refer to an alignment by it's color (further two of the colors are switched: White to Gold, Black to Silver).

That sounds interesting. Which classes are aligned with which of your...colignments?

To be honest, I'm not sure there's a good 4e solution for your problem. I made alignment matter in my 4e campaign via three Smite Evil feats that are available to all PCs, but I think that's a little simplistic for your campaign.

 

[keterys]

Just so I'm clear... what's wrong with saying that Clerics and Paladins get their power from the Valra power source, and Druids and Barbarians from the Abora power source, Wizards from the Balcra power source, Sorcerers from the Shunra power source, etc. (Or however it actually works for your world)

As far as just making more powers... couldn't you also just go through assigning colors, then liberally copy from class to class?

Like, let's say that a Warlock's at-wills were

Eldritch Blast (neutral)

Listing two with each, since I'd think you could arrive from either angle, but the first would be primary if the power _has_ to be a single source for some reason.

Feybite - Abora or Balcra
Hellish Rebuke - Sodra or Shunra
Dire Radiance - Balcra or Valra

and if you needed more, add on
Ray of Frost - Balcra or Shunra
Burning Spray (PH2) - Shunra or Sodra
Storm Spike (PH2) - Abora or Shunra
Radiant Vengeance (PH2) - Valra or Balcra

And beyond that you could even go a step further and say that a power just does different energies and subtle other differences depending on which it's associated with. At which point you might have something like

Dire Radiance: Base = Valra, vs. Will and Psychic = Balcra, untyped (vines and thorns) = Abora, Necrotic and Fire = Sodra, vs. Reflex and Lightning = Shunra

 

[Michael Morris]

That's a thought - but currently any class can be any ethos though admittedly some are a stretch (Sodran Druids). I don't particularly want to break that up if I can avoid it.

 

[keterys]

Eh, Blighter I suppose - those seem to keep cropping up in D&D. What about my later comments? Like, is it okay for a single power to be multiple alignments? How about multiple alignments, but with game changes?

I mean, the Dire Radiance example you do get a very different feel, despite mechanically it being so similar.

Green creates thorny vines that slash it and impede it moving closer.
Red hurls a lightning claw at it that shocks it if it moves closer.
White calls on pure divine radiant power to smite the enemy back.
Black hurls death and flames that choke and consume the target if it disobeys the caster.
Blue smashes through the mind causing pain and redoubling the pain if the target thinks otherwise.

 

[Michael Morris]

Not a bad idea, but it brings up another problem. The ethoses aren't equal in all respects. For example - Valra is best at healing and Shunra is the worst. Shunra has the strongest offensive magic, Balcra has the worst. Balcra's whole theme of countermagic is going to be hard if not impossible under 4e, but Balcra's other strength is illusion and transport - it's just not THAT an offensive ethos.

Part of what distinguishes the ethoses is that they do some actions well and others not so well and still others not at all. It's a puzzling problem.

Also, I changed Sodra and Valra significantly enough that MtG can be misleading when it comes to what they do now.

 

[Michael Morris]

Here is the first page of the chapter on Ethoses which lists the powers linked to each ethos. It explains in brief what they are and might help those unfamiliar with my setting or MtG to see what is being driven at here.

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Chapter 4: Ethos

The alignment system put forth in the Player’s Handbook is, at best, primitive, with the vast majority of characters and philosophies labeled as “unaligned.” Undescriptive to the point of being utterly useless, the 4E alignment system is not used in Dusk. Instead characters have an ethos. This system serves the same purpose but accomplishes it in a more dynamic, fluid and interesting way. You can use this system alongside the 4E game’s alignment system if you wish, but there isn’t much point in doing so.

A character’s ethos describes what philosophies and values that character holds pre-eminent. It answers such questions of what the character is willing to kill for, or die in the name of. It is not a system for judging good and evil though. There are five ethoses. All five are capacle of good or evil in the name of the values and principles they espouse and engender. The five are:

• Abora, which represents the natural world and its eternal cycles. It’s adherents see themselves as stewards of those cycles and act according to what their instinct tells them is best. At its best Abora is a calming and introspective ethos that sees how the world is interconnected, at its worst it is unthinking and instinctual in its responses to those things it sees as a threat to nature.
• Balcra is the ethos of thinkers, philosophers and dreamers. It is the ethos of those driven to learn everything they can no matter the consequence imposed by acquiring that knowledge. At its best Balcra is curious, creative and clever. At its worst Balcra is stoic, cold and dispassionate, not caring in the least about how its actions hurt people and their feelings.
• Shunra is the ethos of passion and emotion. Its adherents do not think – they feel. The do not ponder, they act. Theirs is a world where emotion holds more sway than logic. At their best Shunra’s adherents are loving, passionate and free spirited. At their worst they are thoughtlessly destructive in their unchecked rage.
• Sodra is the ethos of the individual and self. Its adherents believe that everyone should be free to find their own path without restriction. At its best Sodra is driven, independent and resourceful. At its worst Sodra is selfish and paranoid.
• Valra is the final ethos and it espouses community and the complicated laws, moral and ethical systems which keep them bound together with the goal of creating a world where everyone lives together in peace. At its best Valra is fair, just and kind. At its worst Valra is tyrannical and oppressive destroying the lives of the individuals of its community in the greater interest of the community.

Each ethos has two ethoses that are sympathetic to it, and each ethos has two ethoses that are antithetic to it. Each ethos also tends to label the values and principles of the antithetic ethoses as “evil” and it’s own values and principles as “good.” In truth good and evil is a evaluation of the methods used uphold the ethos, not the ethos itself. To further muddy the waters the evaluation of those actions are going to be affected by the character’s own ethos. Each ethos has the capacity for good or evil in the name of the values it champions (which is why it is possible, though not advised, to use this system alongside the alignment system).

In short, there are no absolutes. In the Dusk setting powers that normally work on alignment instead affect a character based on their ethos. This, combined with the nature of ethoses means that spells and powers cannot in and of themselves determine friend from foe – though they might determine likely friend from likely foe. They can also mislead.

Almost all powers and rituals in the game are associated with an ethos. This is because each ethos approaches problems in a different manner from the others. A character’s choice of methods directly reflects their ethos. An extension of this is some classes are more compatible with certain ethoses than others.

However, the ethoses are not exclusive. Nothing prevents a character from having more than one ethos, or even all five. A character can also follow two antithetic ethoses though such characters are almost always internally conflicted (which can make them interesting to play).

A character counts as all the ethoses he has. A character with all five ethoses is therefore vulnerable to all powers and rituals that affect creatures based on their ethos.

In this chapter we will present the ethoses and powers that any class can take so long as the character meets the ethos requirements (the character’s first ethos powers will come from his class).

Purity Boons
Each ethos has a ‘purity’ boon. This is an ability that the character can use if he has no powers drawn from other ethoses.

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The Purity Boons I have in mind are as follows:
Valra -- When you use second wind the +2 bonus to defense persists for the remainder of the encounter. This is a morale bonus.

Shunra -- When you use second wind you do not gain a defense bonus. Instead you gain a +2 bonus to attacks for the remainder of the encounter. This is a morale bonus.

Sodra -- When you use second wind you gain an extra hit point for each foe you have defeated since the start of the encounter up to the maximum value of your healing surge (effectively doubling it).

Abora -- When you use second wind you regain an extra amount of hit points equal to your constitution score.

Balcra -- You may use a Balcra encounter power an additional time per encounter instead of using your second wind.