PF2 plays really not like D&D 4E at all. It uses some of the same math, the same multi classing and skill powers, as well as having some subclasses which mirrors the 4E essential classes, but from gameplay its much more similar than 5E than 4E, being also mostly basic attack focuses. Gloomhaven plays more like D&D 4E than PF2 (since it understood the Essence of 4E better and was inspired by that not by the details). Of course because of the 4E math the encounter balancing works better, which makes it for GMs easier, but you dont get the excitement from all the cool over the top powers and the movement, forced movement and area effect based teamplay.
Hi,
I've had some pressure to run 5.5e DND after our current Masks of Nyarlathotep campaign finishes. I'm not enthused.
I was a big 4e fan and with the way 5e turned out decided to nope out for the first time since b/x. 5.5e looks more of the same. So I was wondering how much work it might be to use the 4e core systems an reskin it to look like 5e to the naked eye.
Obviously it will look like a hack or homebrew to some extent, and I will have to pull in some of the iconic 5e stuff - and I don't mind it all that much. But I want to use 4e monsters and math in the background and I prefer having a power structure more similar for character classes and have them interact with short/long rest in the 4e way.
I also prefer having the three defenses but I might be okay with having these are saving throws - my players low rolling dice - and it pretty each to rejig 4e monster attacks as DCs instead.
Am I insane?
Also I'll be running the original Temple of Elemental Chaos.
So about running 4E disguised as 5E:
I would start by using some of the simplifications I did here:
- Dont have players and monsters add their level (and other stuff) to their defenses and attacks, instead add +1 to monster defenses and attacks per level they are higher than the players. (This is simpler for the players, hides the 4E math and is mathematically the same)
- Introduce a new keyword "Edge" and "Handicap", have them work like advantage/disadvantage, but with the small change that they stack 2 times and cancel each other cleanly. Edge gives +2 to the roll, handicap -2.
+ This can be easily introduced by something like "the original flanking rules made advantage feel too omnipresent not special enough. So instead of leaving it away, there is this modified rule, where Flanking (and other similar things) give Edge instead of Advantage. This makes the powerful abilities with advantage more special.
- Change all modifiers for defense instead to modifiers to attack (against the target). So -2 armor = +2 to attack (to simplify things especially for the next step)
- Then all modifiers are simplified 5E style. If the modifier is 3 or less, it is Edge (or Handicap), if it is 4 or more it is advantage (or disadvantage). This simplifies things a lot, while not really changing the math much.
- Tell the players they start at level 3 (and use the D&D 4E level 1) this is about the same in power level
- For non armor defense, just use saving throws. This can be easily recalculated its mechanically not really a difference only who does the roll
- Present them the 4E classes just as some "really well homebrewed classes" and just select the coolest from them.
- Make sure to include some of the (good) simplified Essential classes, as well as the normal classes. This allows the "I just want to do basic attack" crowd to play a simple character. (And I would for sure include the elementalist to also allow a simplified caster).
- Use the "new alternate rule for recovery" where the number of hit dice is more or less fixed, but are way stronger for out of combat heal!
- Preselect some feats for the players to choose from (depending on class), no expertise feats, no defense feats (thats included in the math mentioned above). Tell them that these are special class feats, and that these classes get feats more often, but can only choose from the class feats
- Only use the weapons which work the same/similar enough to 5E, so no high crit and for sure no brutal weapons.
With these changes it should be A LOT simpler for players, and should feel more like 5E while allowing you to use 4E monsters and encounter balance.
