My attempt at a martial controller: The Monk

[the Jester]

Shouldn't Trip be Wis vs. Reflex? Why Fortitude?

 

[Ruined]

I like it so far. My one suggestion would be to change throw to a push effect instead of a prone effect. Something similar to the Throw attack that the Hook Horror has (minus the prone effect). That way it doesn't double up with Trip and gives another control option.


(and it has nothing to do with my enduring hate of Improved Trip prone monkeys in 3.x. Really.)

 

[deathdonut]

There's a lot of talk about a martial controller, so I though I would try my hand at a monk to see what I could come up with.

Awesome! Definitely could use another controller!

Class: Monk
Source: Martial
Role: Controller
Weapon Proficiencies: Simple melee, Simple Ranged
Armor: None
Class Features:
+1 to fort, reflex, and will.

Aren’t you worried about a melee char with no armor? I’m not sure Insightful dodge and twisting defense will be sufficient.

Unarmed Combat: A monk gains a +1 to attack rolls when fighting unarmed.

Do we even know how much damage an unarmed attack does? I’d recommend defining it here.

Insightful Dodge: A monk in light or no armor can add wisdom modifier to AC instead of dex or int.

I’m afraid this won’t change the AC. You’re still talking about a melee char with an ac of 14 or lower!

Power: If you take a full round action to use a monk attack power, you can add your strength modifier to the damage.

I’d be hesitant to add any such thing as a “full round action” as we haven’t seen this yet. Maybe give them a movement action that enhances attack damage for a turn.

Speed: Your speed is increased by your dexterity modifier.

Very powerful, but mobility is going to be necessary for this to be a melee controller class.

Slowing Strike – Very powerful effect.

Trip – Unprecedented. All known at-will attacks are damage based. Knocking prone without damage is underpowered. Knocking them prone AND doing damage is overpowered. Not sure how to balance this.

Whirlwind Attack – AE burst damage is awesome, but double damage AND AE is a bit overpowered. Encounter powers tend to be double damage to a single target with an additional effect. If the additional effect is AE, the only other example we have is basically half damage to adjacent targets *IF* the first target hits. This is basically twice as powerful as the paragon ability of the ranger.

Twisting Defense – This is pretty cool. Well done!

Throw – Great idea, but why Fort? Seems like a “stronger” opponent would be more resistant contrary to the flavor text.

Stunning Blow – Woah…stun till save ends? That’s extremely powerful. Even a stun for one round is unprecedented for level 1 powers. Maybe make it stun only bloodied opponents? Unsure how to deal with this one.


General comments:

Some great ideas here, but I think it’s a little lacking in the controller abilities. An AE sweep, some movement abilities that hit multiple opponents, etc. would go a long way to fitting the role.

I’m also very concerned over this as an unarmored melee character. To play the role of a melee controller, you will need to move all around the battlefield. With no abilities to avoid opportunity attacks and a low AC, he’s like to get pounded if he attempts to make use of his movement. Even if he gets to the right spot and whirlwinds, he’s going to be pounded the next round.

Might want to give him some “movement after attack” options to get into safe spots and some tumbling/evasion abilities to get to where he needs to be. Of course doing this in the power basis of a level 1 may be pretty rough.

Anyway, fun stuff! Keep up the good work!

 

[Quickleaf]

I'll echo Cadfan that it's a defender with a touch of controller, though I'm not convinced a controller's objective is the opposite of a defender, i.e. to drive opponents away.
Still, I like where you're going and think the concept of a monk as a martial controller has potential.

So what makes a Controller?

I think you've got it.

1. Hindering movement/terrain control (drain speed and use it for your own, create difficult terrain, slow opponents, use opponent as cover/concealment from other opponents, divide enemies into smaller more manageable groups, immobilize an opponent)
2. Area of effect/multiple targets (AoO, threatening reach, burst/cone attacks, secondary attacks, ranged attacks, throw enemies into each other)
3. Debuffs/status effects (preventing communication, hindering leaders, HP-damaging aura, blindness, knocked prone, morale effects/psychological warfare, break formation tactics, strip tactical advantages)

So what does this mean for a Martial Controller? It seems we'd need the following:

- At-Will should either be doing High Damage against Single Target, Low Damage + Rider effect against single target, or Low Damage vs Multiple targets.
- Encounter should be doing effects and damage against multiple targets.
- Daily should be major in effect and potentially still do decent damage.

Here's my take...

At-Will:
Decent damage + minor status effect vs. single target
Low damage + minor status effect vs. adjacent targets
Minor status effect vs. multiple targets (no damage)
Low damage vs. multiple targets

Encounter:
Decent damage + major status effect vs. single target
Decent damage + minor status effect vs. adjacent targets
Low damage + major status effect vs. adjacent targets
Low damage + minor status effect vs. multiple targets
Major status effect vs. multiple targets (no damage)
Decent damage vs. multiple targets

Daily:
High damage + major status effect vs. single target
High damage + minor status effect vs. adjacent targets
Decent damage + major status effect vs. adjacent targets
Decent damage + minor status effect vs. multiple targets
Low damage + major status effect vs. multiple targets
High damage vs. multiple targets

 

[jaer]

Both defenders and controllers hinder enemies, and move them about. The difference is WHY they hinder or move enemies. What purpose does it serve?

I think Cadfad really hit it with this statement. A controller does influence the movement of the enemies, hindering movement or moving them as necessary. But I don't think the controller does it so that he, specifically, can set up more attacks from it. Sure, moving and routing enemies into a group so you can AoE them would be good use of powers for a controller, but the controller isn't keeping an enemy near him so he can wail on them. That is defender territory.

A melee martial controller will need a lot of free movement to make up for the lack of range, but his primary function should not be dealing damage (that would make him a striker).

I think a martial controller monk might have a throw move, but doing so should be in an effort to move the creature somewhere specific, so it should be similar malebranch trident attack in that it does damage and allows the monk to place the enemy where he wants (preferably near the defender).

Throw
You toss you oppenent about like a rag doll.
Melee Attack
Target: 1 creature
Wisdom Attack vs Ref
Hit: 1[W] + wis and you shift the target to an unoccupied square within 3 squares of you.

Further, a Monk should be able to hinder and slow combatants, but should not be stuck near them.

Pressure Point: Pain
You know just the right spots to weaken your opponet.
Melee Attack
Target: 1 creature
Wisdom attack vs Ref
Hit: 1[W] + wisdom. Target is weakened and takes ongoing equal to your wisdom. Save ends.
Miss: Target is weakened until the end of your next turn.
Special: Shift 2 squares after the attack.

Pressure Point: Paralysis
You can stop your enemy's movement with put a touch.
Melee Attack
Target: 1 creature
Wisdom attack vs Fort
Hit: 1[W] + wisdom. Target is stunned/dazed/something. Save ends.
Miss: Target is immobilized until the end of your next turn.
Special: Shift 2 squares after the attack.

The Monk should also be hindering movement and controlling the battlefield as a whole. Maybe something like this

Shatter floor
You unleash a devestating attack on the ground at your feet, sending out a small shockwave to disorient your foes and cover your escape.
Melee Attack
Range Close Burst 1
Wisdom attack vs Ref
Hit: Wisdom damage. Knocks enemies prone.
Miss: Enemies dazed.
Effect: Every square hit by the effect is now considered difficult terrain.
Special: Shift number of squares equal to your wisdom modifier.

Not that I have much concept of level appropriateness, but these are basic examples of what I think a martial controller should be doing and how they should be doing it. IMO, if they are successful in their round, they won't end their round next to a target, but will have either slipped away after hindering the foe or pushed the enemy away, preferably into a tactically sound position. They may move into conflict (unlike the wizard who'd rather remain in the back away from the fight), but they don't stay in harm's way.

The whirlwind attack is a nice touch for AoE damage, but perhaps consider making it 2[W]+wis against an initial target and [W]+wis against all secondary targets? That would tone is down a bit.

Just my thoughts.

 

[ShadowyFigure]

Martial Controller like others have said should be able to move further. Also maybe allow it to move before and after an attack, so it can say paralyze a opponent then quickly get away leaving it to be mashed by the party defender.

 

[Kaisoku]

I like the idea of a Martial Controller either having a lot of movement, and thus keeping away from the targets he's impeding (this would be what makes him a Controller instead of a Defender)...

However, I also like the idea of getting into melee but then pushing the enemies away from you, thus also keeping the enemy from being near you (staying Controller). This has the added benefit of being able to push enemies into the vicinity of a Defender.
The difference between this (a Controller) and the Warlord movement abilities (Leader) is that the Warlord is giving this to other people, while the Martial Controller is doing this primarily as himself (and maybe using his enemies as thrown weapons, heh).

 

[Rechan]

Shatter floor
You unleash a devestating attack on the ground at your feet, sending out a small shockwave to disorient your foes and cover your escape.
Melee Attack
Range Close Burst 1
Wisdom attack vs Ref
Hit: Wisdom damage. Knocks enemies prone.
Miss: Enemies dazed.
Effect: Every square hit by the effect is now considered difficult terrain.
Special: Shift number of squares equal to your wisdom modifier.

You can't shift over difficult terrain, and since you have now ringed yourself in difficult terrain, you can't get out with the Special.

Thus the ability would make a better close blast.

 

[jaer]

You can't shift over difficult terrain, and since you have now ringed yourself in difficult terrain, you can't get out with the Special.

Thus the ability would make a better close blast.

I thought about making a wierd stipulation about the monk being able to move out of this terrain with the special, making it a teleport out (but that seemed too over the top), or even monks as a class feature not being bothered by difficult terrain, but I decided to withhold such statements. I was more interested in trying to give ideas of martial controller powers than actually flesh out totally workable abilities.

And I like the idea of this being a blast rather than burst, but I thought that might be too anime (as if it isn't already!); you know, monk punching the ground someplace and the earth erupting up and knocking everyone down a little ways away.

 

[Rechan]

And I like the idea of this being a blast rather than burst, but I thought that might be too anime (as if it isn't already!); you know, monk punching the ground someplace and the earth erupting up and knocking everyone down a little ways away.

I just pictured it as a wave of destruction. Think Close blast 3, so it's only a 3x3 area (the same amount of space a Close Burst 1 would do).