My 'Boys were Alive and Kicking - SD is out - GB down - NY for the win!!!

[Crothian]

I find equally ridiculous that people are trying to make an issue our of something that just isn't there based on their personal vendetta against the Pats. I mean if the 49ers or Cardinals did this, would anyone care? No.

What's not there? The Patriots did cheat. They got caught and punished for it. And if the Arizona Cardinals were caught cheating the same year they went 18-0 leading up to the Super Bowl people would care.

 

[Kahuna Burger]

Listening to talk radio and such places it seems there are plenty who feel the season should be tainted because of it.

hrm perhaps I'm overparsing based on sleep deprivation, but I don't think "tainted" is the right term. To me it implies that the accomplishments of the season are delegitimized - Bonds' home run record was tainted by steroid use because there is a serious question of whether it would have happened without the steroids. The taping on the other hand was a rules infraction, seriousness seemingly an open question, but I have yet to see a compelling argument that the accomplishments of the season would not have happened without the taping.

I think it would be fair to say that the incident may mar the memory of the season for some fans. That is, a perfect win season is better without a major penalty than a perfect win season with it. But to my mind, if the Pats win the superbowl, they will have a perfect win season. Not a tainted, questionable one, just one that could have had slightly better publicity.

 

[Hellefire]

Every team does it and/or recognizes it doesn't give a competitive advantage

Did you just say that every team that believes it gives a competitive advantage, cheats? And some that don't think it does, cheat anyway?

I may be naive in a kid-playing-Pop-Warner/Mighty Ducks kinda way, but I like to think that some teams/players/coaches still concentrate on athletic skill and actually try to avoid cheating.

One last comment on the subject - I fall in the 'minority' that thinks it tarnishes their season. I don't have a vendetta against the Pats - I don't like or dislike them, I just don't like the idea. Actually, if we add personal feelings into the mix, I'd be most upset if my favorite team (Dallas) did it - I'd be disappointed in them to the nth degree. I might be more vocal about it if it was a team I did vehemently oppose. As it is, well, it's the Patriots. To borrow a line from Wayne's World, 'Here we are in....Delaware' (no offense to you Delawarians out there ).


Now, back to our regularly scheduled program. While I do not and would not like to have control over what people discuss, it keeps things interesting, but the main point of this thread was to discuss who is going to win. Sooooo...

Want to win: Giants. They knocked off my Cowboys and the Packers, both in their opponents home stadiums. Would be cool to see a wildcard team win the SB, and it would validate my 'Boys losing. And if a team is gonna have a perfect season/post-season I'd rather it be a team I care about. Too bad the Giants are another team I have exactly zero feelings for, but thats just the way it goes sometimes.

Pick to win: Hard to go against the Patriots, but I did see lots of determination by the Giants. I'm still going to say N.Y. by 1 - 17-16.

Aaron

 

[GlassJaw]

Good post Kahuna. I think that's my main gripe with this issue, specifically the word "tainted".

Tainted has been used extensively to describe Mark McGwire and Barry Bonds. Why? Because there is strong evidence that they wouldn't have been able to do what they did without steroids. Steroids gave them an advantage.

The Patriots broke the rules. There's no doubt about it. But it's common knowledge that it didn't give them any real advantage and if it did, it wasn't enough to affect the outcome of games. Again, the NFL has verified this.

Would anyone say that the Patriots wouldn't have beaten the Jets that game if they didn't tape signals? Not unless you wanted to be a laughing stock. You'd have a better argument in saying that the reason the Pats went undefeated is because Mangini essentially hit the hornets' nest with a stick and made the Pats mad.

I would even say that the word "cheat" implies that they did something to gain an advantage. I'm not even sure that applies here.

Do I condone what the Pats did? Absolutely not. I wish it never happened.

 

[Wulf Ratbane]

I'm just saddened that thets not the case with most people.

Why would you expect most people to care about a trivial thing that has no bearing on the accomplishments of the season?

Just add it to the huge list of other trivial things that most people don't care about.

 

[Goldmoon]

Good post Kahuna. I think that's my main gripe with this issue, specifically the word "tainted".

Tainted has been used extensively to describe Mark McGwire and Barry Bonds. Why? Because there is strong evidence that they wouldn't have been able to do what they did without steroids. Steroids gave them an advantage.

The Patriots broke the rules. There's no doubt about it. But it's common knowledge that it didn't give them any real advantage and if it did, it wasn't enough to affect the outcome of games. Again, the NFL has verified this.

Would anyone say that the Patriots wouldn't have beaten the Jets that game if they didn't tape signals? Not unless you wanted to be a laughing stock. You'd have a better argument in saying that the reason the Pats went undefeated is because Mangini essentially hit the hornets' nest with a stick and made the Pats mad.

I would even say that the word "cheat" implies that they did something to gain an advantage. I'm not even sure that applies here.

Do I condone what the Pats did? Absolutely not. I wish it never happened.

Emphasis mine.

Yes, they verifyed it based on tapes supplied by the Pats. I don't believe for one minute that they turned over evidence that would further incriminate them. I'm sure a lot of tapes were hidden/destroyed rather than turned in. You dont ask the guilty to further prove their guilt......

 

[Kahuna Burger]

Emphasis mine.

Yes, they verifyed it based on tapes supplied by the Pats. I don't believe for one minute that they turned over evidence that would further incriminate them. I'm sure a lot of tapes were hidden/destroyed rather than turned in. You dont ask the guilty to further prove their guilt......

You've mentioned this before.... the problem is, that it can also be used to argue that the infraction was not a big deal. I mean, it looks like the NFL fined them and said "stop that". They didn't worry about how much it had happened, because the issue was the Pats breaking a rule that had been set, not the sliver of competitive advantage it might have gained them in a possible prior offense.

Or alternately, it was such a horribly big deal that digging for more evidence would reveal how deep the corruption went and topple the entire league, destroying American faith in the integrity of football and relegating the entire sport to less than hockey* status, while the WNBA** takes its true place as the national sports organization. But since that looks to me like Black Helicopter*** level conspiracy theorisism, I continue to view the situation as a rules infraction that was dealt with rather than a tainting scandal.

*No offense to hockey fans.

**Or women's basketball fans.

***Or people being trailed by Black Helicopters.

 

[GlassJaw]

Emphasis mine.

Yes, they verifyed it based on tapes supplied by the Pats. I don't believe for one minute that they turned over evidence that would further incriminate them. I'm sure a lot of tapes were hidden/destroyed rather than turned in. You dont ask the guilty to further prove their guilt......

So basically you are saying that there is nothing the Patriots could have done, even fulfilling all the requirements as explicitly stated by the NFL, that would convince you that the infraction didn't go beyond the Jets game.

As I said before in this thread, you feeling on this matter is best classified as "sour grapes" towards the Patriots and would be drastically different if this happened to another team.

EDIT: Reference to the Patriots winning the Superbowl removed so as not to jinx them any further than I have already. My apologies to Pats fans!

 

[Wulf Ratbane]

I'll enjoy a big heaping plate of crow if I'm not more careful.

Were we not just talking about jinxing the Pats in the last 20 minutes?

Dude.

Dude.

 

[GlassJaw]

Were we not just talking about jinxing the Pats in the last 20 minutes?

Dude.

Dude.

I know, I know, my bad, but this thread has me all worked up!!