My 'Boys were Alive and Kicking - SD is out - GB down - NY for the win!!!

[kenobi65]

In an abstract sense, is there a difference (in sports or otherwise) between breaking a rule and cheating? I mean, in football, every single time a penalty is called, that means a player broke the rules, right? In addition to in game penalties, it seems quite a few players get fined for infractions as well. Are they all "cheaters"? Or did they break rules and get the appropriate penalty for it?

Well, with certain penalties, it's a fine line, IMO.

Some penalties, like offsides, false start, etc., are pretty clear, and a case of a player violating a hard-and-fast rule (i.e., you don't cross the line of scrimmage before the play starts).

Penalties like holding, on the other hand...this is an illegal maneuver that pretty much happens on every play. It's when it gets egregious, or the offending player does it right in front of the official, that it gets called.

From that standpoint, there's "cheating" going on during every play. The players learn how to do it so that it doesn't usually get called by the officials, that's all.

 

[Wulf Ratbane]

But friends that cheat in pointless games I play and cheaters of organized national sport teams of a Billion dollar industry are not remotely the same thing.

Are the days gone when cheating was bad, no matter how small it was?

I believe that's what AMG was getting at, but I'm perfectly willing to split hairs further, and discuss exactly what constitutes "bad" cheating in games "pointless" and otherwise. I have some opinions on what constitutes "bad" cheating in the NFL and how relevant it is to the Pats record-breaking season this year.

 

[drothgery]

Well, with certain penalties, it's a fine line, IMO.

Some penalties, like offsides, false start, etc., are pretty clear, and a case of a player violating a hard-and-fast rule (i.e., you don't cross the line of scrimmage before the play starts).

Incidentally, this is why I'd like the NFL and college ball to standardize on a few rules. The college rules on sideline catches (you only need one foot in, but you're allowed to force the guy out) and whether someone's down or not (because it's often hard to tell if someone's been touched) and the NFL timing rules (because there are so many judgement calls in starting the play clock in college).

Penalties like holding, on the other hand...this is an illegal maneuver that pretty much happens on every play. It's when it gets egregious, or the offending player does it right in front of the official, that it gets called.

It seems to me that you ought to be able to write the rules for holding in such a way that there's not holding on every play, but the behavior you want to ban is illegal. Maybe it's just me.

 

[Goldmoon]

Let me make this simple - don't call people here idiots.

Really, everyone, it is that simple - don't insult people. It isn't all that hard. If you find you really cannot discuss the topic without belittling the intelligence of others, or otherwise trying to make them seem less than you, then I'll have to ask you to not discuss it at all.

If you want to comment on something a mod has said, please email them rather than do it in the thread.

Thanks - Plane Sailing

 

[ClashmoreDave]

LOL. Sounds like he was a kid at the time, and may not have spent much (if any) time on campus.

I spent 6 years there, getting my bachelor's degree, then my master's. And, by the end, I was ready to go somewhere else, so I could experience reality.

Yep. Nothing sinister intended. My folks moved (job relocation), so being a little boy, I didn't have much say in the matter <g>.

 

[GlassJaw]

Cheating is cheating, regarless of the type or relivance. The Pacheats record this season is tarnished by it.

Actually, it's pretty obvious, just from this thread alone, that cheating isn't cheating, regardless of type. There are many shades of gray. And you are certainly in the minority who thinks there season is tainted because of it.

[Obviously bitter]By the way, did anyone mention that it took Moss 16 games to break a record that was set in only 12?[/Obviously bitter]

So is his record tarnished too? Give it a rest.

 

[Crothian]

And you are certainly in the minority who thinks there season is tainted because of it.

Listening to talk radio and such places it seems there are plenty who feel the season should be tainted because of it.

 

[Goldmoon]

Actually, it's pretty obvious, just from this thread alone, that cheating isn't cheating, regardless of type. There are many shades of gray. And you are certainly in the minority who thinks there season is tainted because of it.

Thats the real problem here as far as I'm concerned. I dont understand how this got so swept under the rug. It should have been a huge deal yet, some how its all but forgotten.

So is his record tarnished too? Give it a rest.

Now youre just trying to start something. My Moss comment was obviously not serious. Did you notice the tags on it?

 

[GlassJaw]

Thats the real problem here as far as I'm concerned. I dont understand how this got so swept under the rug. It should have been a huge deal yet, some how its all but forgotten.

That's because it's not a huge deal. You sound like Peter King. Every team does it and/or recognizes it doesn't give a competitive advantage, the Pats paid the price/fine, and complied with all demands as required by the league. The league also specifically said that what the Pats did not affect the outcome of any game, past or present. Why should it continue? I mean really, what more do you want?

I find equally ridiculous that people are trying to make an issue our of something that just isn't there based on their personal vendetta against the Pats. I mean if the 49ers or Cardinals did this, would anyone care? No.

Now youre just trying to start something. My Moss comment was obviously not serious. Did you notice the tags on it?

I can't really tell what your intent is based on your previous posts in this thread.

 

[Goldmoon]

I find equally ridiculous that people are trying to make an issue our of something that just isn't there based on their personal vendetta against the Pats. I mean if the 49ers or Cardinals did this, would anyone care? No.

Youre probably right there, fewer people would care if it were a team that wasnt doing well but that doesnt make it right. I would still be just as upset about it. I'm just saddened that thets not the case with most people.