My first Homebrew attempt to fix the elven dex fighter/rapier and bow all too frequent build in my campaign: I need some advice!

ClaytonCross

Kinder reader Inflection wanted
I don't understand. Isn't Batman very strong?

He is however, he is also stealthy, smart, tough, and throws Batarangs

level 1: 16str 16dex 16con 16Int 10Wiz 10cha would be 38/27 point buy using standard human +1 to all

So the closest you could get as a level 1 D&D character would be:

level 1: 11str 16dex 14con 16Int 10Wiz 10cha would be 27/27 point buy using standard human +1 to all
With all of Batman's abilities his key features is that he is sneaking/disappearing (often breaking into their house or office if your Commissioner Gordon), he is the "great detective", and he is good in fight. I would say he is likely a rogue thief archetype stealing clues and evidence instead of valuables. So if your looking to make a character like that all I am saying is you end up dropping strength and constitution because dex and intellect are more crucial to the concept. This is not a max/min optimizer build which is the OPS stated problem but a reflection of a narrative desire. That said, it is also not sub optimal under the rules as is and if your want to play Batman you may not be trying to optimize but Batman is not considered a sub optimal person... he is a hero. Its fair for players to want to play a hero and reflect that with skills and abilities. That's why point by is 27 points instead of 6 which would allow for a straight 10 average person or skill variation in the net range of average.

The Martial Arts feature lets monks use DEX with all monk weapons. You could do something similar with Sneak Attack. Instead of finesse and ranged weapons, it could give a list of "sneak attack weapons" that qualify.

So are you keeping the Dex requirement for AC since monk have no armor and rogues light? Then Rogue/two weapon fighting fighter or ranger/bard/gish wizard/Druid require you fill strength and dex to be able to fight and not die... which is the tax I am talking about as with the exception of the rogue a dex fighter is not optimal, so the result is you discourage narrative dex builds. Strength fighters only need strength since it allows them to have Plate armor and its their attack stat. The result of this change is all the players a the table who are playing a narrative type that uses dex will be nerfed and all the min/max players will play strength. This does not help the OPS real problem in that he wants a variety of characters all for Narrative reasons.

Making strength more useful mechanically and in narrative can be done by using the rules that already exist. Encumbrance makes a huge difference so do athletics checks, shove, grapple, and the use of strength as an intimidation ability. This will add the variety the OP wants with no homebrew.

The issue of players building to narrative or max/min optimizing is a matter of perspective. I have been accused of max/min design many times but when I pointed out other ACTUAL mas/min designs it was noted that I chose a path less taken but wanted to be good and heroic at it. I play warlock scout... who is good at scouting. If I wanted to max/min I would have played a rogue scout with double expertise and all the skills I need by default, instead of burning feats to get them. But GMs see my character and yell "MAX/MIN'er!!!" or "Munchkin!!" as if I am infringing on the rogue... we planned the group.. I chose to take the "rogue scout" party role and everyone agreed to it. I did not build a character that steps on the rogues toes, I am "the rogue player" I just did it from a more interesting narrative prospective. So why the name calling? Why the attacks? Because my GM wanted to ambush the party and I was able with good roles to spot the ambush and put the party in a better static advantage multiple times. As a Warlock I use eldritch blast (CHA) ranged attack, Shocking Grasp (pact of the tome, Cha) for melee, and dex 16 for AC16 (+1 studded leather). I don't use dex to fight. I void your design arguement entirely and yet I still get the same arguments from my GM. Its not about dex or players designing a heroic character in my opinion, it tends to be stealth character concepts that can attack at range and melee being successful against GM attacks because they are versatile and hard to catch off guard where strength based characters tend to be week vs ambushes with ranged attacks. Oddly, we have a paladin in our group our GM can't hit 99% of the time with his 23AC (Plate armor, Shield +1, Shield of faith) who kills pretty much anything the touches with smite including bosses and the GM has not problem with it. The GM literally counts him as 2 party members for battle calculations. Why is their no issue with him or the Wizard, the barbarian? Because they don't scout and GMs plan on ambushes succeeding or being difficult for story reason. Its often not that the players character is not narrative enough, or that the players character is too powerful that GMs don't like. It is that the players character defies the narrative plan the GM set forth. That is usually the scout but I have seen mages do it too by casting the right spell at just the right time. So the perspective issue is that GMs often call out characters as min/max or optimized when they break the narrative the GM wants because the GM is story telling by themselves and not letting players tell their own part of the story and adjust accordingly. They will not call out characters when they don't or if they simply had no expectation plans for the out come. My GM has consistently said, its hard to learn to not to fight players decisions when they don't go the way you planned everything in your head. We through some serious curve balls and it can really change a lot of work for him but at the same time we can feel it when we pick a direction he did not plan for. (Usually because the "right path" is the path of least resistance and all other paths become very rough road as a "deterrent". Its not just this one GM I see it all the time in the comments about min/maxing vs GMs usually you will hear something about GM work or a player making it so hard for them, or they just don't care about the narrative... but who's narrative? Well, the GMs narrative in their head that the player doesn't know of course.
 

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The problem with removing Dex melee is this punches anyone who wants to be a sneaky batman style melee fighter. They are now "taxed" having to use strength and dex.
Not every character concept is viable under every ruleset. Core 5E prevents you from having Int-based melee characters, like you could have in 4E. You have to draw the line somewhere, so you might as well draw it somewhere that's convenient to the rules.
Also where does this leave you with monks?
If I was going to implement this change, I would give monks access to light armor, and have their special abilities key from Strength instead of Wisdom.
 

Hriston

Dungeon Master of Middle-earth
He is however, he is also stealthy, smart, tough, and throws Batarangs

level 1: 16str 16dex 16con 16Int 10Wiz 10cha would be 38/27 point buy using standard human +1 to all

So the closest you could get as a level 1 D&D character would be:

level 1: 11str 16dex 14con 16Int 10Wiz 10cha would be 27/27 point buy using standard human +1 to all

No, Batman rolled his ability scores and got really lucky.

So are you keeping the Dex requirement for AC since monk have no armor and rogues light?

I don't know what you mean by this. The only change I've suggested to the OP is to do away with the finesse property in melee weapons.

Then Rogue/two weapon fighting fighter or ranger/bard/gish wizard/Druid require you fill strength and dex to be able to fight and not die...

Or they could use all those ranged weapons and their cantrips and leave the melee weapons to the STR characters.

which is the tax I am talking about as with the exception of the rogue a dex fighter is not optimal, so the result is you discourage narrative dex builds. Strength fighters only need strength since it allows them to have Plate armor and its their attack stat. The result of this change is all the players a the table who are playing a narrative type that uses dex will be nerfed and all the min/max players will play strength. This does not help the OPS real problem in that he wants a variety of characters all for Narrative reasons.

I think we disagree about what the OP's problem is then, because the way I read it, the problem the OP is having is that too many players in the OP's group are choosing to play DEX fighters. If the change I've proposed results in those players choosing STR instead, that's exactly the result I was going for.
 

ClaytonCross

Kinder reader Inflection wanted
Not every character concept is viable under every ruleset. Core 5E prevents you from having Int-based melee characters, like you could have in 4E. You have to draw the line somewhere, so you might as well draw it somewhere that's convenient to the rules.

If I was going to implement this change, I would give monks access to light armor, and have their special abilities key from Strength instead of Wisdom.

That is right. So what if we just say strength concepts are not viable under this rule set... its the same argument right?

A monk in light armor using strength is a fighter... you pretty much just removed the class, which is not very different from disallowing them. Ultimately, I just don't think limiting players it the fix for the OPS problems. I think they will shift not go away. You want them to try different things give them carrots not sticks or you will most likely just create hate and discontent at your table.

The OPS issue is not the use of dex, its the over use of dex because of "lack of narrative". But isn't that like the over use of charisma by sorcerer, warlock, or faces? Are they not guilty of the same thing? The OP did not state any reason or impact on the game other than players like the concept. Even if it is min/max players what problem is it causing that needs to be fixed? Why is one stat dex character not "narrative" but a one stat strength character is? The only significant difference is range and our of combat use but the casters can do ranged and melee as pointed out with my character and many spell can mimic skill. what is it that makes an elf finesse fighters worse than a wizard using greater invisible, shield, shocking grasp, firebolt and the warcaster feat with only the max Intellect stat?
 

ClaytonCross

Kinder reader Inflection wanted
No, Batman rolled his ability scores and got really lucky.

Got insane and called a cheater even If he really did, but that's fare.

I don't know what you mean by this. The only change I've suggested to the OP is to do away with the finesse property in melee weapons.

Yes and this forces them to have strength for melee however they don't have heavy armor proficiency so the need dex to have an AC higher that 12 from studded leather which would be suicide at pretty much every table I have played at. In contrast most strength characters are in classes with heavy armor proficiency uses strength for attacks and armor allowance so you your just shifting the optimizers to only strength since the tax of having strength and dex to fight is just too high.

Or they could use all those ranged weapons and their cantrips and leave the melee weapons to the STR characters.

That's "great" until melee NPC characters surround your ranged characters in a tiny room and they are making all there attacks at disadvantage... Also, the argument is

snip...

I’ve got some problems with this build because my most tactical – optimizer – min-max players tend to choose it not for flavour or narrative reasons, but because it’s the most convenient one, and I don’t like it, because I think that, for many aspects of the game, they are right.

..snip

So they aren't complaining because their are dexterous fighters the are complaining because the tactical – optimizer – min-max players favor them. So what happens when the "tactical – optimizer – min-max players" favor strength? Do we then get rid of strength too? What about the Eldritch Knight... Strength and Intellect ranged cantrips. What about the Bladelock… melee subclass with eldritch blast Strength and Charisma? What makes these any different with than the dexbuilds?

I think we disagree about what the OP's problem is then, because the way I read it, the problem the OP is having is that too many players in the OP's group are choosing to play DEX fighters. If the change I've proposed results in those players choosing STR instead, that's exactly the result I was going for.

I do think the OP wants more strength fighters my point is the "why?". The OP points to min/max players and how good these characters are however their are strength builds that are just as optimized and the choice to be narrative is just a personal relation of that or not. So when the Eldritch Knights and HexBlade Warlocks over run the table... with the same tactical options will that be alright with the GM? If so then the only problem the OP is really having it they don't like player stealth builds which is game play style choice and largely narrative. If the OP doesn't like continually seeing the same builds over and over again, then limiting "tactical players" will result in the exact same problem with a different favored build, however, if the OP just wants player to play strength characters more... make strength characters more desirable and your opening up options which will make a more diverse table due to narrative choices.

Your not going to change what makes player love about D&D by taking there favorite toy. You might get them to try new new toy by show how much fun it can be. I would make some strength melee tanks, guarding a small indoor room and working together push them down grapple them gaining advantage on attacks and putting party members at disadvantage on attacks then capture the party instead of wiping them. When they get their buts handed to them by new tactics they might think, "hmmm maybe my build is not so optimal after all and if we had one of these on our team we could do that too!" resulting in a mix of players for more tactics. The purposed changes are not "lets get player diversity" they are lets get ride of an entire type of play. Its an over reaction focusing on symptom of players having a favorite choice not the cause of them not seeing the value in other choices.
 
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5ekyu

Hero
Your list is the perfect illustration of why 5E is wrong. A long list of things the system forces you into doing.

Why not simply acknowledge the 5E simplification means Dex is too good and revert back to how Strength is required for 3E fighters?

Then you don't need to jump through any of them hoops of yours.
Nope... because we could just as easily list the number of challenges that spotlight dex too.

The system foes not force anything- the choices of challenges presented determines the value of the abilities you have in play.

To try divorce challenge from balance by pretending its system not choices is a perfect illustration of blinders.
 


Not every character concept is viable under every ruleset. Core 5E prevents you from having Int-based melee characters, like you could have in 4E. You have to draw the line somewhere, so you might as well draw it somewhere that's convenient to the rules.

Agreed. And I would add that it seems of all the rulesets, 5E is the most amenable to the broadest array of concepts.

...monks... special abilities key...

I see what you did there!
 

Hriston

Dungeon Master of Middle-earth
Yes and this forces them to have strength for melee however they don't have heavy armor proficiency so the need dex to have an AC higher that 12 from studded leather which would be suicide at pretty much every table I have played at. In contrast most strength characters are in classes with heavy armor proficiency uses strength for attacks and armor allowance so you your just shifting the optimizers to only strength since the tax of having strength and dex to fight is just too high.

To clarify, "they" here refers back to monks and rogues. It doesn't force monks to have STR for melee. They have Martial Arts which allows them to use DEX for their melee attacks. They are in no way dependent on finesse. As for rogues, this would make ranged weapons more optimal for them than melee weapons, as it would for any DEX based fighters wanting to specialize in ranged weapons. The point is you would have to choose between being good at melee or good at ranged. You can no longer have both. I don't really get the assumption you seem to be making that every character needs to be good at melee. STR fighters already have to deal with being non-optimal with ranged weapons. The idea with removing finesse is to level the field so playing a DEX fighter isn't always the go-to choice.

That's "great" until melee NPC characters surround your ranged characters in a tiny room and they are making all there attacks at disadvantage...

Where are the party's melee fighters while this is happening? On the other hand, an all-archer party going into a dungeon should expect this sort of outcome and would presumably be betting on avoiding it through stealth.

So they aren't complaining because their are dexterous fighters the are complaining because the tactical – optimizer – min-max players favor them. So what happens when the "tactical – optimizer – min-max players" favor strength? Do we then get rid of strength too? What about the Eldritch Knight... Strength and Intellect ranged cantrips. What about the Bladelock… melee subclass with eldritch blast Strength and Charisma? What makes these any different with than the dexbuilds?

It isn't different. It just isn't the problem about which the OP is complaining. Optimizers are going to optimize because that's part of what makes the game fun for them. I have no idea what the OP's games are like, but it seems with the OP's group's current play-style that DEX fighters are more optimal than the alternative. Rather than try to change that play-style, my suggestion is a simple mechanical alteration to increase the diversity of optimal choices for fighters. I'm sure there are other, more elegant solutions.
 

Dausuul

Legend
What's weird about this is that the rapier is not a particularly potent combat option in 5E. For a melee specialist, the optimizer's weapons of choice are the glaive (with Polearm Mastery*) and the greatsword (with GWM), neither of which is a finesse weapon. Honorable mention goes to longsword if you want to go sword-and-board. Your min-maxers are not maxing very well.

Now, if you were talking about longbows being overpowered, that'd be another matter.

[size=-2]*Yes, you can use GWM with the glaive as well, but you only get so many feats. Even a fighter wouldn't be able to get both feats and a 20 Strength until level 12.[/size]
 
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