RithTheAwakener
First Post
Deathward, the most useful spell ever.
My game has become "me vs. them"
- Thread starter der_kluge
- Start date
Deathward, the most useful spell ever.
For ways to challenge high level characters check piratecat's story hour:
http://www.enworld.org/forums/showthread.php?t=779&page=1&pp=20
My personal advice is:
1) mix the encounters, give them some easy encounters and then give them some tough. Cake encounters allow the characters to use all their cool powers, but set up expectations so you can surprise them later. If you are having problems with tough, go up CR. I find at higher levels advancing monsters doesn't always cut it.
2) make consequences for defeating foes or pursuing tactics... Piratecat's thread above is like a giant reference tome for that.
3) have fun... the point is for everyone to have fun. If you aren't, or your players aren't examine why and find something fun todo.
-E
http://www.enworld.org/forums/showthread.php?t=779&page=1&pp=20
My personal advice is:
1) mix the encounters, give them some easy encounters and then give them some tough. Cake encounters allow the characters to use all their cool powers, but set up expectations so you can surprise them later. If you are having problems with tough, go up CR. I find at higher levels advancing monsters doesn't always cut it.
2) make consequences for defeating foes or pursuing tactics... Piratecat's thread above is like a giant reference tome for that.
3) have fun... the point is for everyone to have fun. If you aren't, or your players aren't examine why and find something fun todo.
-E
Lu Wei Fong
First Post
I'd have to agree with EK here. *starts singing* You've got'ta, got'ta, got'ta mix it uuuuup!!!Erratic K said:
Seriously though, every encounter isn't supposed to be a gritty, bare-fisted round with the unholy angel of death. I think I read somewhere actually that the average encounter is supposed to expend around 20-25% of the party's available resources (i.e. spells, hp, item charges, potions, special daily abilities, etc...). If every encounter was a harrowing brush with oblivion that would scar any sane person for an elf's lifetime, then not only would there be a serious shortage of adventurers, but those type of encounters would lose some of their tension and suspense and suprise and whatever else. Which would be cooler from a DM's point of view to you? A: The party pauses to catch it's collective breath after slaying ascore of trolls in some cavern. Not ten seconds later a pair of fire giants walk around the corner, spot the party, and charge. The PCs sigh, settle into fighting stances and prepare for the worst.... again. Now B: After finally slaying the last of a troll host the size of which the characters have never seen nor heard the like of before, they groan and sit down to lick their wounds. Before they can ponder what caused such a large congregation of the beasts they hear faint tremors in the ground, looking up they see a massive form turn lope into view from around the corner. Craning their bruised necks they see a massive orange-skinned humanoid wearing armor as thick as steel doors and a brace of troll heads tied to it's belt. The creature stares for a moment at the battered and haggard party and then grins wickedly, drawing a sword the size of a small tree as it advances menacingly. And then the second one appears behind it... The PCs, who are used to near-effortlessly vanquishing hordes of petty undead or rogue beasts or what-have-you, feel their blood run cold as they seriously wonder if they'll ever see the light of day again... So yeah. Sure, if it happens all the time they'll always be pretty worried about their characters' continued, well, life, but this way you'll probably get a few to crap their pants or something
Ahhhh, the joys of being a DM ![:]](http://www.enworld.org/forum/images/smilies/devious.png "Devious :]")
Anywho, whatever you do, always remember the golden rule (as was mentioned earlier): Make sure you and your victims are having fun!!
jollyninja
First Post
apply templates to familiar creatures. just when they think they know what's coming, the half red dragon troll pops up and nails em with a firey treat.
seriously though, an encounter i loved using in my last campaign was a 16 of the level five hobgoblin fighters out of the dmg npc section accompanied by a pair of level 9 sorcerors. ray of enfeeblement, haste, invisibility sphere. you only get one shot but if the first round takes out the wizard (6-8 flat footed flank attacks) and the tanks can't carry thier shiny magical platemail after two rounds because they have lost 12 pts of str. the encounter stays tough, the cleric can't keep up with two casters with improved invis. every once in awhile i threw in a lev 13 caster to freak them out.
for more generic advice, take terrain and environment into account. flying creatures swooping in areas where the warrior types have to make balance checks every time they want to attack, bridges of ice being pelted with fireballs from below while the party are assaulted from both sides. have enemies use dimensional anchor, if the party wizard uses a cone of cold, it's not a stretch for a 4000 year old creature with a 10 int to know they might have some magical means to evade capture or teleport. if they've got any kind of detection spells, they would use them. if they are hunting the party they would be pausing every few rounds to reuse their at will ability to see invisible for sure. that's not metagame, they've got it and know they've got it. they would use it.
in high level games, the monsters have to act a little more cohesively. even the chaotic neutral and not all that bright ones are going to do simple things like flank party members whenever possible, you don't have to come close to killing all of them, but i consider my job not done if i do not get every character into single digit hp at least once per month no matter the party level. the high powered monsters are assumed to not be ambushed every time because they know what they are doing. they have probably fought off adventurers before, unless your players have some unusual advantage or tactic, your standard grey slaad has probably see it fifty times.
seriously though, an encounter i loved using in my last campaign was a 16 of the level five hobgoblin fighters out of the dmg npc section accompanied by a pair of level 9 sorcerors. ray of enfeeblement, haste, invisibility sphere. you only get one shot but if the first round takes out the wizard (6-8 flat footed flank attacks) and the tanks can't carry thier shiny magical platemail after two rounds because they have lost 12 pts of str. the encounter stays tough, the cleric can't keep up with two casters with improved invis. every once in awhile i threw in a lev 13 caster to freak them out.
for more generic advice, take terrain and environment into account. flying creatures swooping in areas where the warrior types have to make balance checks every time they want to attack, bridges of ice being pelted with fireballs from below while the party are assaulted from both sides. have enemies use dimensional anchor, if the party wizard uses a cone of cold, it's not a stretch for a 4000 year old creature with a 10 int to know they might have some magical means to evade capture or teleport. if they've got any kind of detection spells, they would use them. if they are hunting the party they would be pausing every few rounds to reuse their at will ability to see invisible for sure. that's not metagame, they've got it and know they've got it. they would use it.
in high level games, the monsters have to act a little more cohesively. even the chaotic neutral and not all that bright ones are going to do simple things like flank party members whenever possible, you don't have to come close to killing all of them, but i consider my job not done if i do not get every character into single digit hp at least once per month no matter the party level. the high powered monsters are assumed to not be ambushed every time because they know what they are doing. they have probably fought off adventurers before, unless your players have some unusual advantage or tactic, your standard grey slaad has probably see it fifty times.
re
die kluge,
What you may think is an insane encounter may be just tough enough to challenge them. High level Pc's are real tough. They always do surprising things, especially spellcasters. CR's are real hard to gauge. You should continue to toughen up your encounters until you reach a point where you challenge your PC's. Then you know what kind of power you need to throw at them for future encounters.
As a DM, it has taken me a while to get a grasp on my PC's power levels. Even in a recent campaign, I handed out magic items that were too good. They ended up walking all over my bad guys. I had to scale the enemies up until I found a point where they could challenge the Pc's. I found that point when our biggest fighter ended up smoked by the vampire fighter he went up against. The PC's were real surprised and didn't support him with healing properly because they were used to him destroying everything he faced.
Once I found the power level necessary to challenge them, they became tense during encounters again. They prepared better and didn't expect a cakewalk.
The drawback of doing it this way is they may level a little faster. In my case, there level had to catch up to their magic items. Their magic items were making them stronger than they actually were supposed to be.
I'm not sure why you are having trouble challenging your PC's. You should really sit down and figure out what is causing them to walk through your encounters. It could be any number of things: tactics, magic items, min/maxed characters, or some other thing you may have overlooked. Once you figure out the reason, then compensate accordingly.
die kluge,
What you may think is an insane encounter may be just tough enough to challenge them. High level Pc's are real tough. They always do surprising things, especially spellcasters. CR's are real hard to gauge. You should continue to toughen up your encounters until you reach a point where you challenge your PC's. Then you know what kind of power you need to throw at them for future encounters.
As a DM, it has taken me a while to get a grasp on my PC's power levels. Even in a recent campaign, I handed out magic items that were too good. They ended up walking all over my bad guys. I had to scale the enemies up until I found a point where they could challenge the Pc's. I found that point when our biggest fighter ended up smoked by the vampire fighter he went up against. The PC's were real surprised and didn't support him with healing properly because they were used to him destroying everything he faced.
Once I found the power level necessary to challenge them, they became tense during encounters again. They prepared better and didn't expect a cakewalk.
The drawback of doing it this way is they may level a little faster. In my case, there level had to catch up to their magic items. Their magic items were making them stronger than they actually were supposed to be.
I'm not sure why you are having trouble challenging your PC's. You should really sit down and figure out what is causing them to walk through your encounters. It could be any number of things: tactics, magic items, min/maxed characters, or some other thing you may have overlooked. Once you figure out the reason, then compensate accordingly.
marketingman
Explorer
Well it could be the flu when you DM not at your peak it can lead laspes in play.
But it seems you have been dissatisfied by your PC's for a while because they are using the same tactics over and over.
Sleeping it off part could be interrupted by a creature dispelling the magic it has found to be in the area. Could not the monsters not use the same tactics for the group to come out and find them all rest and ready to continue the rumble.
If your Players have a strong background in CRPG's they are always wanting the samething to work because it has always worked. Who says the monster could not build a roaring fire under where the PC's have disappearede to ward of bad juju. Or to cremate the fallen from t he battle.
Never look at the game as me vs. them. Use rules but do not abuse them do not fudge the dice roles let them fall were they may. Remember that you are the entire world to these PC's so that the adventure doenot end when they slay the encounter it just leads to the next.
Back to my ignorance.
But it seems you have been dissatisfied by your PC's for a while because they are using the same tactics over and over.
Sleeping it off part could be interrupted by a creature dispelling the magic it has found to be in the area. Could not the monsters not use the same tactics for the group to come out and find them all rest and ready to continue the rumble.
If your Players have a strong background in CRPG's they are always wanting the samething to work because it has always worked. Who says the monster could not build a roaring fire under where the PC's have disappearede to ward of bad juju. Or to cremate the fallen from t he battle.
Never look at the game as me vs. them. Use rules but do not abuse them do not fudge the dice roles let them fall were they may. Remember that you are the entire world to these PC's so that the adventure doenot end when they slay the encounter it just leads to the next.
Back to my ignorance.
Gundark
Explorer
It seems that no one has mentioned this but....what is your DMing style? Do your PCs have uber-stats? Do they have more powerful magic items than they should? d20 is a game that needs to be balanced, if you have been Monte Haul with them then it's come back to bite you in the butt, espically at high levels. take a look at that too.
rushlight
Roll for Initiative!
My campaign just moved into epic levels, and as the levels ramped up, I initially found challenging 18th+ level characters difficult. I've found the CR system begins to break down around 16th or so.
When my party was 20th level, they fought against some slaad: a death slaad/sorcerer (CR20) 2 advanced grey slaads (CR18) and a handful of green slaads. They mopped up this mob in about 5 rounds. Next battle was with a pit fiend - CR 20. It took them 3 tries, and 2 player deaths (Paladin, both times!) to deal with him. In the end I learned that a CR20 magic-based battle is much easier for my party than a CR20 melee-based challenge.
My solution to all of this was to implement the Action Points system from Unearthed Arcana. This system gives the players a number of points that they can use when things get tough. They only have so many, so they must be judicious with them - but it allows me to throw much tougher monsters at them. I'm not worried as much about a player accidentily dying because the encounter is too hard - the Action Points will usually keep them alive long enough to either figure out a way to defeat it, or to beat feet for safety. APs are like the security net for the CR system at high levels. It doesn't make things any eaiser for the players though - they still get challenged and must think and act to survive. They can't just rely on APs to pull their fat out of the fire every time.
When my party was 20th level, they fought against some slaad: a death slaad/sorcerer (CR20) 2 advanced grey slaads (CR18) and a handful of green slaads. They mopped up this mob in about 5 rounds. Next battle was with a pit fiend - CR 20. It took them 3 tries, and 2 player deaths (Paladin, both times!) to deal with him. In the end I learned that a CR20 magic-based battle is much easier for my party than a CR20 melee-based challenge.
My solution to all of this was to implement the Action Points system from Unearthed Arcana. This system gives the players a number of points that they can use when things get tough. They only have so many, so they must be judicious with them - but it allows me to throw much tougher monsters at them. I'm not worried as much about a player accidentily dying because the encounter is too hard - the Action Points will usually keep them alive long enough to either figure out a way to defeat it, or to beat feet for safety. APs are like the security net for the CR system at high levels. It doesn't make things any eaiser for the players though - they still get challenged and must think and act to survive. They can't just rely on APs to pull their fat out of the fire every time.
Mystery Man
First Post
You better believe they do. Why wouldnt they?
I mean really, what does "at will" mean? It sure doesn't mean metagaming. It means they can see invis at will.
Last edited:
Three_Haligonians
First Post
My advice is: start shaking up your encounters, here are some ideas:
1. Throw in some natural-disaster-type challenges WHILE your characters are fighting the big bad. For instance, have them fighting in an underground caveren that starts collapsing. This can provide a barrage of saves, and adds that "dear God we may just die here" element to fighting.
2. I think its been mentioned here before but giving time restraints or added responsibility really helps make an encounter more exciting.
3: If your players are wiping the floor with an enemy...for the love of God CHEAT, man, your the dm. Sometimes its hard to judge what will be a difficult encounter, if your bad guy gets knocked down to half hit points in the first round....give him more hit points than you originally intended.
4: Use the oldest trick in the book: divide and conquer. My dm put one of my buddies in a wall of force with a summoned pit fiend while me and the other pc had to fight off the wizzard. Very difficult stuff.
Sounds to me like you guys have fallen into the find, kill, sleep rut. Hopefully this will help you spice it up a bit.
Hope this helps!
T from Three Haligonians
1. Throw in some natural-disaster-type challenges WHILE your characters are fighting the big bad. For instance, have them fighting in an underground caveren that starts collapsing. This can provide a barrage of saves, and adds that "dear God we may just die here" element to fighting.
2. I think its been mentioned here before but giving time restraints or added responsibility really helps make an encounter more exciting.
3: If your players are wiping the floor with an enemy...for the love of God CHEAT, man, your the dm. Sometimes its hard to judge what will be a difficult encounter, if your bad guy gets knocked down to half hit points in the first round....give him more hit points than you originally intended.
4: Use the oldest trick in the book: divide and conquer. My dm put one of my buddies in a wall of force with a summoned pit fiend while me and the other pc had to fight off the wizzard. Very difficult stuff.
Sounds to me like you guys have fallen into the find, kill, sleep rut. Hopefully this will help you spice it up a bit.
Hope this helps!
T from Three Haligonians
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