My game has become "me vs. them"

Tactics and power.

I had no end of trouble with my players walking over my baddies. I generally ramped up the bad guy levels/abilities to the point where PCs could easily die and they weren't so blase afterwards.

If your bad guys are intelligent then let them use it. Ambush the PCs. Set up defences that thwart some of their abilities - if the baddies have a chance to find out what they can do, that is. Null magic zones are amazing levellers, but don't overuse them or the PCs will get uppity.

Basically, think like the BBEG and try to defeat the PCs rather than just throwing monsters at them.
 

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Divide the party -- in your next encounter, have a nice wall trap go off... right between the party, separating it in two groups (the marcing order decides who ends up on wich group). Make it like an ambush, where an actual party member does not set off the trap, but an adversary. That way, they cannot depend on each other for the encounter. Have only one of the groups engage in an EL13 Encounter, and have the other group just listen through the wall. They should be able to find the secret mechanism to bring up the wall (DC19) only after 5 rounds of combat.

That should make for a good nail biting encounter...
 

These are all great ideas, guys. I think it boils down to the fact that my combat tactics really suck.

Here is a breakdown of the game from Saturday:

And my party, for those that want to know:
Minotaur Barbarian (mountain of hit points, deals about 100 points of damage in full melee)
Dwarven Fighter (has an AC of 34, 35 with dodge, and a ring of blinking)
Sorcerer (loves to use ot's resilient sphere, which has a reflex target of 27)
Cleric
Fighter/necromancer/spellsword
rogue/ranger
Fighter (two-weapon fighter)

The dwarven fighter, the minotaur, and the sorcerer are all my "uber" PCs. The rest are fairly standard builds, and do not overly concern me.

So, the party is going through this underground tunnel which is a backdoor into this demonic fortress. They fight some chaos beasts. This battle went pretty well. I pitted them against a dozen regular CR 7 chaos beasts, and two CR 21 advanced "divinely infused" chaos beasts. The big ones had 3 party members reduced to globs of goo before the battle was over. The cleric separated half of the beasts with a well placed blade barrier. The cleric healed/restored the sick PCs, and they rested.

Later, they made their way into the fortress, and fought 5 blue slaad, 4 reds, and 2 greens. All slaad are advanced, and the greens have spellcaster levels.

In examining my tactics, I did just what someone here suggested I shouldn't do - they all advanced, fought to the death, and while I did deal quite a bit of damage to the spellcasters with some fireballs and chaos hammers, the sorcerer managed to encase both green slaad in resilient spheres. I managed to dispel one, and he did it again. We finished the game with the two slaad in the spheres. The player got cocky and argued that I should just remove them since "We're just going to surround them and annihilate them". But, both have been buffing in the spheres - both have displacement up, and one is blurred on top of that. Half the party is still on a ledge overlooking this chamber, so there'll be a few rounds' worth of time before they can "surround" the greens, which gives me more time for things like deeper darkness, and invisibility. All of which make for incredibly hard to hit slaad.

I really like the idea of keeping them on their toes, and I can use this fortress to that end very easily, since it's quite infested with slaad.
 

I know the module of which you speak.

I once had the greys dispel the invisibilty on the spell caster and had two blues who were invisible, go up and grapple him (they have enormous grapple bonuses, specially when they're buffed) and carry him off.

*heeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeh* <------evil laugh
 

Another suggestion...

You may want to swing by the Rat's Nest (Home of Rat-Bastard DMs far and wide). "The Crucible" is a public forum where you can solicit specific ideas on your current and future situations and get comments from some of the most evil DM minds around.

Rat's Nest

If you are worried about your players finding out...just register under an assumed name ;)!

~ Old One
 

Ok some general notes:

1. Time pressure is your friend. they can only hole up in a rope trick for 8 hours if their goal will not evaporate by then. A static dungeon challenge might be fine for low levelk guys, but a reactive and fluid one is better for higher level guys.

2. getting there is your friend. Script scenarios which require magic to be expended just to get there. Crossing a river and climbing hills are challenges for low level guys, but those challenges are nothing for high level guys. instead they should need teleport without errors to get into the compound, plane shift to get to the effreeti's lair, maybe some resist elements to survive for a while, etc.

3. The enemy's lair and setup should be much more magical and inexpected and require time and effort on its own. Again,m this is primarily to sap their capabilities, but it can also give them challenges. imagine a fortress built for creatures who can all walk on walls, for instance... no stairs, no reall difference between cieling and floor for setup, etc.

4. of course, intelligent enemies will have intelligent setups. Slaadi sweeper teams with someone rtunning see invis makes sense, albeit maybe a little too organized for chaotic varmints.

5. finally, remember cr are guidelines. Play should tell you whether you need to up them or not. if your guys balk at having an 18 cr dragon go against their 13th level guys, the response of "but you toasted two 14s last week without breaking a sweat" is fair.
 

Thanee said:
As soon as the party has Restoration, level-draining becomes hardly frightening.


but it does drain resources and spells. and hps if they are hit.





You should make it difficult for them to use their buffs to full advantage (can only guess, that this is a problem), by giving them time limits. If they only have that much time to find something, they cannot afford to rest all the time, or use all their spells up at once.

yeah, hit and run tactics are great for using up buffs.

so too is scary unexplained things.

a rope that leads up to the ceiling.... nothing up there.
a door to a solid stone wall
an unseen servant caring a torch floating down a corridor

odd bits and pieces of backstory left all over the place.
 

The party has several weaknesses I can see. They are very melee focused, the vast majority (Cleric and Sor excluded) having some manner of melee class. Their only rogue is multi-classed. (Complex Traps, the kind only a maxed rogue could find, trigger rock slides, floods, or other such things in rapid succesion can work). Tag the healer and the rest have to rely on potions and scrolls for even the most minor of healing.

All you need is a single wizard, level 17+. A Disjunction can really ruin your day in a Rope Trick or anyone who uses Magic Items. Summoned Creatures can engage party members, and keep them off the wizards back. Elementals, Undead, and Constructs would be powerful assistants he could have. Some have mass hitpoint or some really intense abilities. Ghosts are especially fun if no one has Ghosttouch on their weapons. A spell turning item can make the sorceror's spheres to himself. :)

Never underestimate the effectiveness of a horde, especially if the characters have to protect a village or a group of refugees. The individuals should be easily defeatable for the characters but in VAST numbers. Nothing makes a character wish he hadn't gotten up that morning than climbing a ridge, and seeing a valley filled with undead or goblins. The longer that kind of battle or siege goes on, the thinner the mage's magical resources and the more exausted the fighters grow.
 

A few quick notes, die_kluge.

One, make sure you examine Piratecat's Story Hour, My Story Hour and Sepulchrave's Story Hour for some examples of ways to challenge high level players and keep them on their toes. It can be done, and done well. At 13th level, you've cross the threshold into mid-level play...in a couple of levels, you'll see what true high-level D&D PCs are capable of, and it's scary. :)

General Quick Notes:

1.) Time constraints. It's been mentioned before and I'll reiterate it: PCs who are not worried about some form of deadline are less threatened and better prepared. When they retreat to rest, make the world change in their absence. Pressure them some what, but don't crush them. Have the castle become abandoned, or the defenders restock the defenses. Making custom items takes time...force them to make hard choices.

2) Constrain rewards. The higher level you get, the harder it should be to find the exact kind fo treasure they want. Leave a +4 pickaxe instead of that longsword they need. Force them to hunt down and find (or quest to create) the items they desire for their characters.

3) Be aware: the CR system is less reliable at high levels for a reason: PCs power-bases become so divergent, it's hard to make a single designator for such divergent collections of abilities. A group of 18th level characters with no arcane caster but lots of different weapons will have a different experience than a collection of arcane and divine casters against a mithral golem, for example.

4) Be aware that the CR system assumes 4 characters and certain conditions. You have 7 players. Encounters need to be planned differently for them. Adding additional monsters of the same type isn't going to be the only solution. Despite what the DMG says, the equation is not so cut and dried. With this many players, most of them aren't going to be doing much per combat. Spell resources aren't going to be as precious, and folks may even clamor to do something.

5) Remember the rule: "Everybody rolls a 1." Even the most powerful monster may fail a save...will, in fact, do so eventually. Plan accordingly. The same applies to players, for that matter.

6) Mix up the environment: have the players battle on other planes, underwater, in the air and on dangerous terrain. have them fight in a snowstorm or a thick fog. Challenge their expectations and perceptions.

7) Remember that CR alone doesn't tell the tale because it assumes a series of encoutners. A party should have little trouble dispatching a monster of the appropriate CR. The issue is the draining of resources. "Damn, I should have saved that dismissal!" If the party thinks that more battles are coming soon, they'll be much more likely to hold their resources back, making combats more challenging. Conversely, a suprise attack when the group isn't ready, particulary if the casters are prepped for something different altogether, makes what might have been a simple battle much harder.

8) Remember to let them win and strut their stuff. They earned the powers fair and square...let them enjoy them.

9) Bend the rules. Send a unique creature at them, such a unique demon with DR 15/silver or DR 10/crushing, for example. Heck, make it DR 20/Cheese, for all they know. Change a creature's appearance and confuse them.


High-level play can be fun, challenging and every bit as viable as low-level play...but it is a different game, and needs to be addressed as such.

If you want more advice, I'd be glad to give it.
 
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WizarDru said:
One, make sure you examine Piratecat's Story Hour, My Story Hour and Sepulchrave's Story Hour...

I like the capital on 'My' ;)

Nothing like a God Complex in a DM to really scare the players :)

-Hyp.
 

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