D&D 4E My plans for a 4E revamp

[Garthanos]

I just looked at the d20 Rogue same beast sir same beast as the 4e one the real transition was when the thief of 1e and 2e became a rogue in 3e (there where basically no ways a thief could get round to round sneak attacks)

 

[Garthanos]

To me, the Warlord is still battlefield tactical skills, combat guile, and combat inspiration. The rogue is more use of raw trickery, underhandedness, and tool use.

The warlord is a different flavor of trickery sure and its easily identified as being more about team based trickery which is the distinction, but I can look at many different fighter exploits and say yup this too is trickery

Pus rogue powers use more Ws since the weapons are stronger. You DO NOT want rangers access to rogue powers.

That is more about the details of making a power from a class specific one to a martial one. It was mentioned how come and get it needs some sort of adjustment if you give it to a rogue. It can be done but it takes a case by case adjustment you do not just blindly say you can do all of the things.

 

[MoonSong]

Sorcerer: I start to struggle with the arcane casters. I think the sorcerer's playstyle should be more power focused than spell focused, making the sorcerer more of a half-caster that gains other supernatural abilities tied to their bloodline. This way, the sorcerer's playstyle would be kind of playing like a monster.

An idea I had for sorcerer was to allow power spamming as a class feature. Under 4e each power is single use, maybe sorcerers could be unique in being able to use any encounter up to the number of encounters and any daily up to the number of dailies instead of each of them only once.
Also to expand in the idea of weapliment powers, to give them the ability of using daggers and spears (perhaps even clubs) as implements and powers to go with them.
You could still keep the supernatural/not spell abilities as a replacement for ritual casting, sorcerers and rituals don't mesh well together.

 

[Garthanos]

Class as big tent is plausible in 4e. It even worked with retrofitting the Slayer.

If the "Fighter" is a big-tent class, you will have subclasses that have the defender mechanics in them. And you'll have some powers that are defender subclass only.

What I see is wrong headed here is that, in practice, you'll be making a game for a few people to play, and not a game for millions to play.

Which means you don't need 18 powers to pick between at level X for a fighter. That character-building minigame isn't something you are going to deliver (it takes a LOT of work to make up that many powers and give them fun fluff and make them vaguely balanced -- I've tried) practically.

So don't deliver it. Deliver narrow, essentials style classes (well, vampire-essentials; with mostly pre-determined power picks). Have customization along the lines of "you can pick a power from another subclass at this level".

As part of the thing for big-tent classes, make the classes more distinct.

If you are going to have Str vs AC, 2[W]+Str+Slow powers on two classes, consider that your classes aren't distinct enough yet, in either theme or mechanics.

---

Imagine if the Fighter has a pile of power strikes powers you apply after you hit.

The Rogue has movement powers that produce riders on foes you move next to.

The Ranger has stances that it flows in between, dealing an effect when leaving a style and when entering one, and a passive off-turn benefit.

The Wizard has spells that take 2 rounds to cast, but hit hard.

The Sorcerer manifests their bloodline as they use their powers.

The Warlock's magic creates symbols over the battlefield, executing clauses of its contract.

The Paladin turns damage dealt and prevented into an aura.

etc.

All of these can fit in the 4e damage budget mechanics without having powers that are at all like each other.

Decided those deserved more than a like some nice ideas in there.

 

[Minigiant]

Class as big tent is plausible in 4e. It even worked with retrofitting the Slayer.

If the "Fighter" is a big-tent class, you will have subclasses that have the defender mechanics in them. And you'll have some powers that are defender subclass only.

What I see is wrong headed here is that, in practice, you'll be making a game for a few people to play, and not a game for millions to play.

Which means you don't need 18 powers to pick between at level X for a fighter. That character-building minigame isn't something you are going to deliver (it takes a LOT of work to make up that many powers and give them fun fluff and make them vaguely balanced -- I've tried) practically.

So don't deliver it. Deliver narrow, essentials style classes (well, vampire-essentials; with mostly pre-determined power picks). Have customization along the lines of "you can pick a power from another subclass at this level".

As part of the thing for big-tent classes, make the classes more distinct.

If you are going to have Str vs AC, 2[W]+Str+Slow powers on two classes, consider that your classes aren't distinct enough yet, in either theme or mechanics.

---

Imagine if the Fighter has a pile of power strikes powers you apply after you hit.

The Rogue has movement powers that produce riders on foes you move next to.

The Ranger has stances that it flows in between, dealing an effect when leaving a style and when entering one, and a passive off-turn benefit.

The Wizard has spells that take 2 rounds to cast, but hit hard.

The Sorcerer manifests their bloodline as they use their powers.

The Warlock's magic creates symbols over the battlefield, executing clauses of its contract.

The Paladin turns damage dealt and prevented into an aura.

etc.

All of these can fit in the 4e damage budget mechanics without having powers that are at all like each other.

I have to agree with a lot of this. I really only see 2 methods of real broad appeal for powers pooled by power source:

Narrow Essential Classes with Class Feature that determine your Primary Secondary and Tertiary Ability scores and Combat role

• Martial
  • Knight STR/CON Defender
  • Duelist DEX/CON Defender
  • Slayer STR/DEX Striker
  • Hunter DEX/WIS Blaster
  • Marksman DEX/INT Sniper
  • Beastmaster WIS/STR Striker
  • Thief DEX/STR Striker
  • Scoundrel DEX/CHA Striker
  • Tactician STR/INT Leader
• Divine
  • Warpriest -STR/WIS Leader
  • Templar- WIS/STR Leader
  • Invoker- CHA/WIS Blaster
  • Avenger,- WIS/INT Striker
  • Cavalier- STR/CHA Defender
  • Crusader- CHA)STR Defender
  • Blackguard- STR/CHA Striker
  • Runepriest- STR/CON Leader

Or Big Tent Wide Classes with subclass choices which give Major Class features that do the same thing....