D&D General My Problem(s) With Halflings, and How To Create Engaging/Interesting Fantasy Races

[Chaosmancer]

You've got the city halflings and nomad halflings for that.

It's also not beyond the bounds of belief that a twentysomething non-Tolkien fan could actually like the pastoral hobbit version of halflings.

Sure, they might. They also might not.

But, um, what can you tell me about city halflings and nomad halflings that make them different from Pastoral halflings? Because it seems that the vast vast vast amount of writing is for the pastoral halflings, and the city halflings are just humans, and the nomad halflings... are nomads... and that's all I know about them. Because that's all I can find.

 

[jayoungr]

But, um, what can you tell me about city halflings and nomad halflings that make them different from Pastoral halflings?

Same basic attitude, different lifestyle.

I don't get this repeated assertion that "city halflings are just humans," coming from multiple posters in the thread. If halflings live in an elf city, do they become elves?

 

[Oofta]

Same basic attitude, different lifestyle.

I don't get this repeated assertion that "city halflings are just humans," coming from multiple posters in the thread. If halflings live in an elf city, do they become elves?

For that matter, my cities typically have a mix of races. Do elves and dwarves also just become humans when they live in a city dominated by humans?

 

[Faolyn]

Why is it so terrible to expand their lore and give them something else to work from than just being hobbits with a legally distinct name?

You tell us. Every time we have pointed out parts of their lore, you've dismissed it as being boring or not really existing (despite us showing you actual passages of text which support the lore's existence).

Or you claim that because you personally don't know how to describe something, it must be bad lore, even after you've been shown how to describe it repeatedly. Seriously, how hard is it to describe what happens when a halfling PC rolls a 1, then rerolls it to something else? Even if both rolls are a failure, you should be able to describe how it looks like it would be a catastrophic failure but is actually a less-bad failure. You failed your roll and fell into the pit, taking damage but narrowly avoiding the huge spike that would have impaled you. Or Brave! Halflings are more likely to not be affected by magical fear. You don't need to make the rest of the party more scared. This isn't rocket science!

And when we have shown you how to expand upon the existing lore or make up new stuff, you've dismissed that as well, for being wrong, non-canon, not supported by the text, you personally shouldn't have to homebrew, they're boring so anything that makes them not-boring strips away their identity as halflings, that worlds that have different lore for halflings don't use base lore, and therefore don't count unless you want them to (seriously, if all the races have been changed for Eberron, you can't say that all dwarfs are like Eberron dwarfs and can turn a mountain into a face). And so on.

You have refused to say what you think would make halflings more interesting for you, claiming you didn't want to spend "5,000 words" to do so, even though you've probably written nearly as much talking about how much you don't like them because they're boring.

The 5e books on your shelf are not going to magically change with new text. WotC is not going to put out the Littleman's Guide to Halflings tomorrow. 5.5 or 6e is going to be at least a couple of years in the future. So you want new halfling lore right now? You want them to connect to the world in a way they don't already? Either write it yourself, using your ability as a gamer to make stuff up, or actually take some of the many, many examples that have been posted to this very thread or on the web in general. If you can't think of a way to make halflings interesting, then that's your problem.

 

[Faolyn]

For that matter, my cities typically have a mix of races. Do elves and dwarves also just become humans when they live in a city dominated by humans?

And don't most people assume that cities that halflings generally life in halfling neighborhoods and in Little Hobbitons? And thus would be surrounded by their own culture anyway?

 

[Micah Sweet]

Yes, as every single person in the thread has told me. However, having a problem with the base lore and thinking the base lore should be changed is not accomplished by homebrewing my own lore. As noted by the fact that even though I changed dwarf and elf lore, the PHB remains unchanged.

And yes, I think it is fair to say that halfling lore should be changed in the book, to improve it and make it stronger.

Additionally, while there are some people who are talking about removing them, I only agree with them if we insist on not changing anything about halflings. If people want to keep every single thing exactly as is... then yes, I'm fine with them being moved out of the PHB, but if people are open to them getting improved, then I see no reason to do that.

If you agree that you can change the lore for, have some good ideas on what you would do, and would be happy with the result in your own game, why then do you feel the need for the book to be changed? You have everything you need. Changing the book means altering something that many people are happy with as it is. You must really be confident that the changes you want to make are in everyone else's best interests.

 

[Jack Daniel]

That is not why anyone is talking about rewriting halfling lore. And I would say that Elves, Dwarves, Orcs and Goblins in DnD are not the same as their Tolkien equivalents. Just for the bare bones easy lob, ORcs and Goblins in DnD are not the industrial power they are in Tolkien, and Elves aren't semi-divine beings who perceive the world as flat.

And D&D halflings don't have furry feet anymore, but we all still know where the tropes come from. Tall, graceful, magical, arrogant, forest-dwelling, archer elves and rugged, greedy, dour, taciturn, heavily-armored warrior dwarves didn't come from Lewis or Dunsany or Anderson or Norse mythology. Also:

"Elves often live to be over 1,200 years old, although long before this time they feel compelled to depart the realms of men and mortals. Where they go is uncertain, but it is an undeniable urge of their race." —2nd Ed. PHB

That ain't a riff on L. Frank Baum's version of elves, friend.

 

[Gammadoodler]

Sigh..

In general terms to cover every possible thing an author or creator might try to do? A break down of themes and technical mechanics of the medium that leads to the work not having the intended effect.

I mean, you are basically doing the same as asking "what is your objective measure for a car not working", well, it kind of depends on what part of the car. Saying it is stuck in one place isn't right for if the brakes won't engage and you can't stop.

I mean, there is an entire section of critical review for works where people look at something and state what didn't work. Pacing could be off because you spent too much time padding a flashback. You could have done a flashforward that confuses the audience instead of increasing dramatic tension. You could have used humor to break tension in the wrong spot, leading to the tone of the work being off.

That's correct. I am asking you to clarify what you mean by a vague hand-wavey evaluation, and by what objective measures you arrive at that vague hand wavey evaluation.
And to your credit, you've tried. That said, nothing in your particular critical review has anything to do with any of the elements you've listed. Your examples are 100% storytelling mechanics.

Yes, art is subjective, but it contains objective components. There are musical notes that sound wrong when put together, and while that can be used on purpose to evoke that feeling of wrongness, it doesn't mean that you can use that same music in a scene that is supposed to be peaceful and make someone feel at peace. If you could, then the very ideas of tropes and archetypes could not possibly exist.

You are trying to draw a parallel between musical notes which have specific physical measurable mathematical relationships with each other to story setting thematics, which do not.

Even in music theory though, your "objective" components only exist in a shared cultural context. There are various instances of regional folk music that do not adhere to the "rules" for those components.

The last sentence there is literal nonsense. I suspect something got list in translation. The ability to use a particular piece of music in a scene has nothing to do with the existence of archetypes and tropes.

Because a single person can be wrong. Know you are probably going to say "well than can't you be wrong". And, if I hadn't seen other people in other places for other reasons saying the exact same thing as what I am saying, then that might be a valid criticism. But just because I am the only one saying it right here and now doesn't mean that other people don't agree with me, and I am following that opinion.

Are you claiming authoritative consensus, or not. That would be a different claim.

You know what those other critics likely do when confronted by those that disagree with them? It probably isn't calling their opponents arrogant elitists who are trying to force people to submit to their arbitrary opinions. They probably, like I've done many times with people, discuss the actual criticisms and find common ground. You didn't take that route. You took the route of saying all possible criticism is null and void because fantasy is make-believe and therefore standards, themes, symbolism and entire fields of study don't exist and don't matter.

So there's three things here.
1. Perhaps I need to read more criticism, but I rather suspect that claims of objective truth are rare, and frequently met with scorn.
2. And I haven't made this clear before, and I think it's one of the main reasons I find your claim so unbelievable, D&D is not a monolithic entity with one design intent and theme. The intents and themes are tied to the specific tables.
3. I didn't say all criticism is null and void. I said your particular criticism is not "proof" the assertion that hobbits "don't work in the D&D mythos"

Of course you can TRY to combine certain elements. But when you do, and someone tells you "actually, that doesn't work for these reasons", rational people don't respond with berating the person for daring to critique them because their work is free-form and doesn't abide by rules and therefore criticisizing it is arrogance.

I do not think that there is one "rational" way to react to someone telling you you're doing your art wrong.

That said, an accusation of arrogance and elitism does seem like one perfectly valid option.

And maybe, if you could show that LoTR and Dungeons and Dragons have identical thematic elements that would justify hobbits as they exist in LoTR being copied whole cloth into DnD... that might change this conversation. If you can show that those elements DO work together, then my criticism is being opposed on its own level. You didn't do that. You attacked me for daring to even attempt to apply any level of criticism to the fantasy genre.

So I must oppose your criticism on its own level despite disagreeing that it is a valid level on which to engage.. yeah, not really interested in that.

So Lord of the Rings doesn't feature the battle between Good and Evil, with evil having a single unifying force? Is that or is that not a fact? Because if it is a fact, then you are wrong, there are facts here.

This is the closest you can come to a "fact"? You know what facts are, right?

Almost like we would have a discussion. Can't do that though.

An analogy.. I say "I have no interest in money.."
You say "Why don't you spend your time haggling with me over price?"

And, while I can agree that "kinship" in the terms of friendships is important, I'm not sure I would say that is something that the hobbits portray in a way that works like it would in an adventuring party. Were any of them really close with Gimli, Legolas or Aargorn? I mean, Sam and Frodo abandon the Fellowship at the end of the first book, and they never meet them again until after Mount Doom. And large portions of the Next two books ahve Merry and Pippin not interacting with Gimli, Legolas and Aargorn, who are chasing after them.

Sure, the friendship between Sam and Frodo is a big deal, but I don't really see that extending from the other hobbits to the non-hobbits.

Fine.. whatever.
All Hobbits did the entire time was integrate themselves into like every society they came in contact with...again..whatever.

The interpretation that my position is the only possible position? I don't believe that I said my position was the only possible position. I obviously believe my position is right, I don't know very many people who purposefully take a position they believe is wrong. And I never really had a chance to do much to talk about my position, because you immediately started attacking me personally, instead of discussing my position.

So.. your interpretation is your opinion..and not "objective fact".

I mean, we could have skipped a lot of back and forth if you'd acknowledged that earlier. I disagree with that opinion..and that's fine.

 

[pemerton]

It tells you that the creators are willing to provide them with incremental mechanical support, beyond what is published in the PHB.

The bog standard PHB elf has proficiencies in various martial weapons, perception and some stealth bonuses or latent magic. These items are adding nothing to that formula that wasn't already there.

Edit: on further consideration, for these items the lore contribution could be considered to be that elves are magic crafters. Perhaps this is true, but there is little mechanical support for such a contention, and the whole lore justification for it appears to be "well they can live a really long time, so of course they can be really good crafters" But given how much of crafting is predicated on the accumulation of knowledge and practices built up over years by a collection of artisans, and given how elven lore emphasizes that elven independence and their willingness to chase their passions, I don't believe elven culture would develop the institutions that would support prolonged crafting expertise. I think it's much more likely you have occasional experts and a whole lot of "I'm figuring out my own way" garbage.

Basically elves are gonna be busy admiring good craftsmanship, maybe painting portraits of it or writing songs about it.. Meanwhile your dwarves and gnomes establishing guilds, writing instruction manuals, etc. so that their accomplishments can be repeated and built upon by their successors.

To me this is very odd. Elven cloaks and boots are taken straight from JRRT. And JRRT's Elves are great crafters - they forged the Silmarils and the Three Rings and many other powerful and important artefacts. Feanor pursued his passion, and so did Celebrimbor - that's part of the explanation of how they were able to achieve what they did in respect of crafting.

More generally, there's no contrast in standard fantasy tropes between being an individual who pursues his/her own passions and achieving greatness in one's endeavours.

 

[pemerton]

But, I think you are hitting the nail directly on the head.

Yoda's species doesn't matter. Yoda matters.

But, if I am building a star wars world and I start saying that Yoda's species is one of the four most important species in the galaxy... because Yoda matters... then I'm talking nonsense.

Sure, Sam, Frodo, Merry and Pippin mattered. But that doesn't mean Halflings matter. And if we want halflings to matter... they need to have actual lore.

I think this is a non-sequitur. The reason for having race descriptions in a PHB is so players can build those characters. The place of those races in the setting is a secondary concern at best.

For reasons I've already posted in this thread, I think Halflings are unsatisfactory protagonists for FRPGing because the literary purposes they serve is answered already in a FRPG, by different means.

But if others want to play them, they can knock themselves out! And as far as being dropped from the PHB, it seems to me that ship has probably sailed.

But none of this turns on whether or not they are important in the setting. I'm glad that the PHB2 for 4e D&D included Devas, because one of my players played one. But I think outside of that character devas figured at most in one or two episodes of play.