My review of ETools........long post

[vic20]

eTools is great software!

In 30+ years of tabletop gaming history, I have yet to see a Good Commercial RPG Character Generator. Master Tools was to be that tool.

I have been writing software for 19 years, have programmed professionally in six languages, and have analyzed/designed/built dozens of technologies in diverse customer domains. I don't reference my experience in a vain attempt to elevate myself or my opinion. Its just that there are patterns of a sort hidden in the chaos of software development that I don't think would be apparent to somebody who hasn't been inside the storm.

When I read a comment like the above, I am reminded of the difficulty of managing one's expectations in proportion to the clarity of one's "vision". 30+ years is a long time to roll a fantasy technology around in your head. Try communicating these needs into a software requirements specification sometime, and (if you are doing the task correctly), you will immediately begin to find holes in your fantasy.

I don't know what was behind the shift from MasterTools to eTools, but I'm sure its all been written in the boards here and elsewhere. Reading posts to the board of late, I had imagined that the "drek" that has been "pushed on us" was going to be a poorly-thought-out mish mash of ugly interface elements that often results from shifting project requirements. Imagine my surprise to discover this morning that eTools is actually great software!

I don't understand the complaints about it being unusable. I have designed and programmed interfaces for the Mac, for Newton, for Windows, for Java, for Palm, for HTML, for the Vic20, and the Com64. I have used software on all of these platforms, and I have been assaulted by my fair share of bad interfaces.

The GUI for eTools is fine. Sure, it's not going to cause a revolution in the way that humans interact with computers, and it certainly isn't going to be the fantasy "Silver Bullet" software that will make paper obsolete. It is a tool for generating monsters and characters for 3ed D&D.

In short, I am pleased with the efforts of the good people that have shed blood and sweat on my behalf. I like the fact that the product ships in a simple cardboard sleeve. I like the data storage mechanism. I like the export capabilities. I like the extensibility potential. I like supporting software artists that build tools that make me smile.

And thats Why you oughta get your cash back, IF you're unhappy with the product, don't settle man, don't wait, no hoping.
It's why we ain't got a good one now, somebody at Fluid/WotC thought it was okay to push this drek out on us...
on me.

Its a Durn (good evening, Grandmother Noah) shame that a vocal few seem to feel that the developers at fluid have insulted them personally.

Somebody there thought we'd be okay with it, we'll buy and settle, and if enough of us settle then maybe we'll get an expansion for it.

I didn't settle.
And neither should you. Any of you.

Now if you liked ETools - please disregard my sober rant, It's nearly quittin time and I'll be intoxicated shortly

For the record - There is nothing buggy about Etools, it didn't crash on me, it made most of the CRB characters.
But there ain't a DAMN thing right about it either.
no amount of 3rd party fixing - not tweaking, customising, or modifing, fixin' is gonna make it right.
'sides then you talking about a MSAccess license...or Breakin' the law [/B]

I'd really be interested to read more about this MSAccess license violation that you allude to. That's a pretty heavy implication. Maybe I'm misunderstanding something.

 

[mattcolville]

Re: Re: Yeah...uh-huh

Cry more?




Oh yeah, go for it. Since you certainly relish bitching about other people's efforts, maybe you'll gain some wisdom by being on the other side of the table.

Yeah and if he does it long enough, he'll eventually get to the point where he can't understand why anyone would expect any product to work as advertised.

 

[Hatchling Dragon]

Thank Goodness!

Here I stopped in at the WotC shop in the Mall of America with the intent of buying eTools (among other things), yet they were fresh out. I'd been dissappointed but figured that perhaps it was for the best, since I hadn't had a chance to check-up on any reviews for said product yet anyhow. I'm certainly glad I did get that chance, as I'm fairly certain that the WotC shop wouldn't have taken back my copy if I'd installed it and been dissappointed (which is a fairly certain thing from what I've read).

I very seriously doubt I'm going to bother with it now, it looks like I can get as much use out of 3rd party software with less expense, as well as the 'bonus' of supporting fans that devoted thier blood and sweat to a hobby they love. If you're going to produce a product with the intent to make money it'd be nice, for once, if it were done before you dropped it into the market. Granted, I know something about programming and databases, but I'm not in the majority of gamers here. Not only do most players not have the know-how to 'fiddle' the software into full useability, many (that I know) simply don't have the time to spend on 'finishing up' a product they bought to save time in the first place.

I'm with the poster above who said that the 'no games' part of the d20 license was a definate shot in WotC's own foot. Heck, they could have narrowed that limitation down to 'anything but tools' or some-such. I can certainly understand them not wanting just anyone make up an acutal DnD game without WotC getting thier fair share.

Hatchling Dragon

 

[Ranger REG]

IMHO, the "no Interactive Game" clause in the Trademark License does NOT extend to electronic tool aids. It is when you allow said aid to tell you that you hit or miss (aka success or failure), is when it is classified an Interactive Game. Only the DM can make the determination.

Of course, the heart of all software debate has been the Open Game License itself. So far, no one has been able to come up with a solution to offer a game or tool that would allow one to clearly designate OGC within the program's code.

 

[HexGunna]

Re: eTools is great software!

Vic20 - I dig that you liked the software. I didn't and we can agree to disagree. I liked your whole post. Nicely put together, rational. I can respect that. Thank you.

My whole take is I had something I didn' like, got my money back.
I didn't want to wait for or depend on community support and I had a higher standard for Etools that I felt Fluid/Wotc could have - and should have met. I was Stoked when I saw master-tools demo.

I, too, write software systems, not turning this into a pissing contest, but lets just say - if you watch any financial news, you've seen my work. And you've seen it roll across your TV realtime, fast, accurate and global - cause if it ain't...people get mad.
I got my gig - 'cause I know a little something about software.
I roll in an Audi TT, and own a Ducati because my boss likes what I do. They Dig my Mojo. In all this IT busting and downsizing, I still have my gig, as a contractor w/ a company thats been swinging a BIG axe. I'm the Merc, hence HexGunna.
- a D&D character generator that manages the character creation process and ALL the options in the Core Rules. could have been built and Done Well 5 years ago. This software isn't an engineering marvel. I don't believe it's that complex.
WHY isn't PrClasses or templates in there - it should be and could have been. And it could have handled most future classes/PrClasses by expansion or User Input.
And I can't feel sympathy for any kind of internal changes, dealing or drama with the company. I'm the consumer. I vote with my wallet and will not tolerate or settle for items that don't meet my needs. And will shop for a good deal, a balance of price and functionality(of what I'll use). Here is where OGL protects Fluid/WotC.

Want some proof-of-Concept....take a look at ArmyBuilder - over at www.wolflair.com. I won't even taint it by talking about the program.
No complaints from me. I own a commercial copy, use it for more than a few of my war games. Any gripes I had were about the data files...which I had broken myself.

Man, This is doable - We got CAD programs that let Joe Homeowner take deck plans down to the nearset Homestore with a materials list. plans he made on his home PC. And Joe's a car mechanic!
We got DJ's in clubs that mix up stuff on their home PC - play it in the clubs - and packs the House!!
We're playing WarcraftIII, NWN, MorrowWind.
Heh - How is it NWN I can build a Half-Dragon Sorcerer (NPC) - I can build a Fey/Undead/Ranger (NPC).
all Easily.
It can be done. It's not complex. That said I know whats next.
[OGL transition] - The OGL prevents it because of the Vagueness of it. I directly asked R.Dancey, point-blank about software tools, not games - the OGL doesn't make a distinction on purpose - figure out how to solve the Open-content question, you could STILL be in violation for the software clause.
Got an attorney involved - I was serious. Bottom line was unless I was willing to go to court to "try" the license - we'd never know.
I talked to the PCGen folks recently - they're using java and have the limitations they do for the same OGL legal reasons.
and I appreciate them telling me so.

On the MSAccess issue - Didn't mean to mislead anyone. Let me try again - simply to use the ETools data you need a way to get to it. I don't have MSAccess at home, so thats +100-200(??) more dollars for me to alter content.

So let me retract - I take back anything I said that amounts to "ETools sucks" - and I don't think I said that [iirc]
I was disappointed, I expected better from Fluid/WotC.
at the minimum - I expected better than the current freeware.
Etools is not to me. It's "more of the same" but for $30 bucks.

as in all things YMMV

I thank you for the Dialog Vic20.

 

[Sm!rk]

NWN doesn't support *all* of D&D 3rd ed. That how they are able to "do it", they cut out a considerable portion, and did so to simplify the system, pcgen and etools don't have that luxury.
Can I make my own templates, how about classes in NWN? I don't have it so don't know.

I can name a lot of good software, but none of them are 2 years in the making, many of them have 10+ years of development behind them and millions of man hours, especially development tools like CADs, Art programs, 3d Modelling.

Sure it can be done, but can it be done in a couple years with a small budget? PCgen has a small budget, and they have been working on it for a couple years, and it *ain't it*. Also note the programs I mentioned above are very expensive. Sounds like you want a Ferrari but only willing to pay for a Yugo.

 

[LightPhoenix]

NWN doesn't support *all* of D&D 3rd ed. That how they are able to "do it", they cut out a considerable portion, and did so to simplify the system, pcgen and etools don't have that luxury.
Can I make my own templates, how about classes in NWN? I don't have it so don't know.

NWN can do it because they have a license from WotC.

I can name a lot of good software, but none of them are 2 years in the making, many of them have 10+ years of development behind them and millions of man hours <snip>

Sure it can be done, but can it be done in a couple years with a small budget? PCgen has a small budget, and they have been working on it for a couple years, and it *ain't it*.

PCGen has no budget, hence the whole volunteering aspect of it.

PCGen also does a lot more character-wise than E-Tools does, from all reports.

 

[Ranger REG]

FWIW, if PCGEn is on the consumer market with a sticker price of $40, the programmers would have a more-than-healthy retirement account. They still have to fix the slow speed problem.

 

[HexGunna]

NWN can do it because they have a license from WotC.
PCGen has no budget, hence the whole volunteering aspect of it.
PCGen also does a lot more character-wise than E-Tools does, from all reports.

I concur -
And I'd like to add - (and you can verify by talking to the PCGen Folks) - they would & could do MUCH more IF they weren't limited by the OGL license.

Sm!Rk: Son, I'm losing ya. I sent my $30 donation to PCGen, I own NWN (2 copies), All the Campaign Cartographer stuff which I use religiously, Numerous D&D3E books, I bought a Dell to run linux off of to host my games Websites. I own a registered version of PaintShop Pro. For The orignal feature set of Master Tools I'd shell out $70. No flinching. And knowing I'd never use the graphics or the mapper in it. Show me one - and I'll buy the Ferrari EVERYTIME!! - But let me spell it out for you - I referenced NWN because it is Proof-of-concept. Somebody figured out one way and implemented it. I can in NWN build a Half-Dragon Undead Sorcerer(If I so chose) or (DIG THIS) an Undead, Fey, fighter with monsterous levels. The my orignal statement isn't about how much NWN supports of D&D3E, but what characters it can build, thus it demonstrates that "it is doable" and folks are "doing it". Why they(NWN) took the road they did is an argument about target market audience. And the can do it because they have WotC on board.
(Which ETools did too................)

I missed your point about CAD software and such having millions of hours and such behind them ? Are you saying a D&D3E char/monster generator that supports the CRB is on par with these other pieces of (CAD-like) software?
If you are - then I'm prolly done with you and this specific topic where we disagree.
Because I will vehemently cling to the notion that this tool can be done, under a year supporting the CRB because it is NOT complex. It is not CAD software. It's a big Windows Wizard driven by game rules (the engine) the likes of which already exist today.
And perhaps did yesterday...
But it's all moot man, purely academic until OGL is no longer an obstacle...Nothing I can do or say.
It just all so much talk.

 

[Sm!rk]

I can in NWN build a Half-Dragon Undead Sorcerer(If I so chose) or (DIG THIS) an Undead, Fey, fighter with monsterous levels. The my orignal statement isn't about how much NWN supports of D&D3E, but what characters it can build, thus it demonstrates that "it is doable" and folks are "doing it". Why they(NWN) took the road they did is an argument about target market audience. And the can do it because they have WotC on board.
(Which ETools did too................)

Bioware didn't have WoTC on board. Wotc had *no* say or oversight at all on any Bioware product. They only recently decided to be interested in having more control over their IP. Bioware might have gotten their original license from TSR. And this will be unchanged in the future since Hasbro sold the rights for computer D&D games.


My point which still stands is that its one thing to allow someone to make a half-dragon sorcerer, its another thing to allow the half-dragon part to be freely interchanged with any possible user creation. Does NWN do this? Does PCGen? Does eTools?


But still it took them 5 years to get half-dragon sorcerers in NWN, Pcgen and etools, 2, albeit the later two had to have customization.

But it's all moot man, purely academic until OGL is no longer an obstacle...Nothing I can do or say.
It just all so much talk.

Oh, is that this weeks excuse? The OGL is keeping me down man. Git yer boot off me neck OGL.

So the OGL is preventing people from doing things, while Copyright laws seem to be no deterent to the PCGen crew. You think it would be the opposite, since the latter is a much more well known entity and has a stronger legal presense.



If you wouldn't mind backing up some of your earlier statements on your own experience and background, what do you program in? My guess is VB, is that correct?